voideternal wrote: Gorbacz wrote: I assume the game is balanced as it is, if you buff casters - fine, go ahead, but what about making sure martials don't lag behind? I understand you think that, but I was under the impression that this thread was started by people who don't think the game is balanced and want to buff casters. Under such an assumption, buffing martials is unnecessary. "I get my numbers raised" is a buff, "I can outright shut down an entire encounter with 1 spell so we're not in any danger or challenge" is broken.
One-shotting encounters is not spellcasters identity, it's casting spells. If you're giving one-shotting abilities to caster then you need to give it to martials as well.
Martialmasters wrote: Grankless wrote: Martialmasters wrote: I'd rather have 5e legendary saves (that doesn't mean I'd rather play 5e)
As it is. In the games I play, and by how recall knowledge actually works.
You have to meta game to know if the spell is gonna be next to useless.
So you would rather that spells will do literally nothing rather than still have a chance for a powerful effect? You sure that's a good "buff" there? Legendary resistance isn't even a good design in 5E. I never says it was, it's just better then incapacitation.
The issue is they are legacy spells they kept that have typically been save or suck. They were never well designed to begin with. So instead of changing or ommiting them they add in an entirely new unfun system just to try to manage them. The result is unless you meta game you risk having a trap spell and wasted turn at a much higher rate.
Effect on success does not change that feeling or experience. If your lucky as roll high you also never knew. So it still feels all or nothing. They did change them though outside Incapacitation, there's no metagaming required to use these spells. You don't like that enemies get debuffed instead of absolutely nothing happening doesn't make the spells useless or unfun.
Rysky wrote: "I get my numbers raised" is a buff, "I can outright shut down an entire encounter with 1 spell so we're not in any danger or challenge" is broken.
One-shotting encounters is not spellcasters identity, it's casting spells. If you're giving one-shotting abilities to caster then you need to give it to martials as well.
I'd agree if this sentiment was in PF1, but in PF2, the number of spells that can actually pull that off is imo pretty low.
I gave a list of spells earlier in this thread, but I think the only spell that can meaningfully neuter a whole encounter as a single spell is Calm Emotions + Sleep (at least at low and mid levels).
A majority of the other spells are single target, and a monster is generally only single-shotted on a critically failed save. On a standard failure against an incapacitation tier spell, the round-losing debuff generally grants another save at the end of the round. This means:
Against a bunch of mooks, Calm Emotions might work but a 1-target incapacitation spell won't end the encounter.
Against a single boss, any incapacitation tier spell could feasibly cause the monster to lose about 1 round, assuming the boss fails the save.
Unlike attack rolls, spell DCs are hard to make more effective. Frightened could work against a boss, but because bosses tend to have high saves all round, it's difficult to pull off anything higher than frightened 1, which means the chance of failing / crit failing won't swing much even with your team working with you to apply debuffs.
"I can outright shut down an entire encounter with 1 spell so we're not in any danger or challenge" is broken if it can be pulled off close to 100% of the time like in PF1, but in PF2 math, I don't see it happening more than 5% of the time per round per incapacitation tier spell against a boss-tier enemy assuming the incapacitation tag is removed.
Edit: I haven't looked at any of the APG spells yet though. I'm getting the PDF right now, wooohooo!!! :D
I'm curious if anyone has tried the house rule "roll twice when incapacitation applies then take the higher result". This seems like a sensible compromise, but I'd like to see if this works in practice.
How about addressing the level scaling with some meta magic:
Competent Spell: (Feat wizard/sorcerer/cleric/bard/etc 10) [Metamagic]
Actions : one (free?), once per minute, your next action must be to cast a spell.
The next spell you cast is heightened to your level divided by 2 rounded up, but only for the purposes of calculating its incapacitation and counteract checks. If the spell provides ongoing counteract checks, it reverts to the level of the spell slot used after its first counteract check.
thansel wrote: How about addressing the level scaling with some meta magic:
Competent Spell: (Feat wizard/sorcerer/cleric/bard/etc 10) [Metamagic]
Actions : one (free?), once per minute, your next action must be to cast a spell.
The next spell you cast is heightened to your level divided by 2 rounded up, but only for the purposes of calculating its incapacitation and counteract checks. If the spell provides ongoing counteract checks, it reverts to the level of the spell slot used after its first counteract check.
As a 1x day feat would be ok IMO.
Not by lvl 10 ( it's a little stronger than quick cast, since it would give you for example a lvl 10 spell instead of a lvl 1 ), but maybe starting from lvl 14 it might be acceptable.
HumbleGamer wrote: thansel wrote: How about addressing the level scaling with some meta magic:
Competent Spell: (Feat wizard/sorcerer/cleric/bard/etc 10) [Metamagic]
Actions : one (free?), once per minute, your next action must be to cast a spell.
The next spell you cast is heightened to your level divided by 2 rounded up, but only for the purposes of calculating its incapacitation and counteract checks. If the spell provides ongoing counteract checks, it reverts to the level of the spell slot used after its first counteract check.
As a 1x day feat would be ok IMO.
Not by lvl 10 ( it's a little stronger than quick cast, since it would give you for example a lvl 10 spell instead of a lvl 1 ), but maybe starting from lvl 14 it might be acceptable. How about as a focus spell? Consumes a focus point and the original spell slot.
Overcharge (Focus 6)
Actions•:
Components: verbal
Targets: self
Duration: 1 minute or until discharged.
You take the energy from this focus spell and store it, ready to enhance another spell. While this spells duration lasts, you can choose a single cast a spell action you make and choose to heighten that spell to the same level as your focus spells (generally half your level rounded up), or a lower level. When you do, make a will save with a DC of 10+twice heightened spells new level to resist the strain, with the following results:
Critical Success: the spell is heightened, and you gain a +1 circumstance to your spell DC and spell attack for that spell
Success: the spell is heightened.
Failure: the spell is not heightened, but the overcharge duration is not ended.
Critical Failure: the spell slot is lost, and the overcharge is discharged.
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