One of my players wants to play the Kasatha race which has four arms and uses the multi-weapon fighting feat assuming he would gain 4 attacks during a full-round action.
This sounds reasonable to me but it makes me wonder why anyone playing a rogue would not choose this as TWf is just a heavily watered-down version of this.
I am trying to determine if this is fair as I can see the rogue on their team becoming quite jealous and I'm wondering whether I should just stick to the core races.
To the title of this thread, no: Multiweapon Fighting does not grant multiple attacks. It' only reduces penalties when you take multiple attacks. There are actually rules for Kasatha characters. They do get multiple Attacks.
nibmus wrote: This sounds reasonable to me but it makes me wonder why anyone playing a rogue would not choose this as TWf is just a heavily watered-down version of this. For starters, a lot of GMs, including Pathfinder Society, don't allow Kasatha. And even if they do, a lot of players make their choices for reasons other than powergaming. And even among powergamers, there are things to strive for other than being good in combat. And for being good in Combat, there are lots of ways to achieve that other than getting lots of Attacks in a Full Attack. And Kasatha isn't even my first choice if I wanted a Full Attack build with lots of attacks that do lots of damage.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Frankly, if you allow it and the kasatha player will build anything reasonable, such as a Slayer with kukri, he's going to overshadow the rest of the party and leave the Rogue player wondering what is he exactly supposed to do at the table.
Gorbacz wrote: Frankly, if you allow it and the kasatha player will build anything reasonable, such as a Slayer with kukri, he's going to overshadow the rest of the party Maybe. 4 arms is definitely an advantage, but there are lots of ways to gain advantage, and advantage can mean many different things. I am a little curious to see your 4 armed Kukri-wielding Slayer. Honestly, though, Slayer is not the way I'd go with 4 Kukris, and Kukri was not what I was thinking for a 4 armed build.
Gorbacz wrote: and leave the Rogue player wondering what is he exactly supposed to do at the table. Actually, I thought the Kasatha PC was going to be the Rogue.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Well, at least it will be slightly balanced by playing the worst class in the game.
As for the Slayer Kukri build? I'll be just lazy and lift one that was posted here some time ago:
1lv Weapon Finesse (get agile enchants on your kukris ASAP)
1lv: Skill Focus: Stealth (Focused Study in place of Human Bonus Feat)
2lv: (slayer talent) RCS: TWF
3lv: Dirty Fighting
4lv (slayer talent): Poison Use, +1 Dex
5lv: Improved Dirty Trick
6lv: Rogue Weapon Training: (Weapon Focus: Kukri)
6lv (extra slayer talent): ranger style=>improved TWF
7lv: Quick Dirty Trick
8lv (slayer talent): combat trick=>Power Attack, Human Bonus Feat (Skill Focus: Intimidate), +1 Dex
9lv: Greater Dirty trick
10lv (Slayer Advanced Talent): Feat: Cornugon Smash (get cruel enchant now)
11lv Hurtful or Agile Maneuvers or Hellcat Stealth
12lv (Slayer Advanced Talent): Feat: Shatter Defenses, +1 dex
12lv (extra slayer talent): Feat: Dirty Trick Master
At this point at level 12 you're ready for some sick Intimidate + at-will sneak attack, +40ish Hellcat Stealth cheese and DTM which allows you to slap some silly debuffs with your DTs. Your GM will now have to rewrite every encounter to a) pose some challenge for you b) not TPK everybody else. Pathfinder 1e in a nutshell, you're welcome.
So, his Kukris do 1d4 + Sneak Attack 4d6, and he has 7 attacks/round: 3 primary due to BAB and 3 off-hand + 1 more due to improved 2 weapon fighting. At level 7 he gets Quick Dirty Trick to lock in his Sneak Attack Damage and Shatter Defenses at level 12. And his Power Attack is off of BAB+12, so +4 Damage with his first Attack an his off hand weapons, +2 with his second, and +1 with his third. So, 1d4+4d6= 16.5. You don't say what your starting Dex is, but you specify that you are raising your Dex 3 times. I'll assume an odd number for your Dex, and give you +2 due to Dex to Damage.
You are giving your self 4 +3 Kukris: +1, Agile (+1) and Cruel (+1)
4(18,308) = 73,232gp
4(17.5+6)= 4(23.5) = 94 with a -6 on the Attack roll due to Power Attack and MWF
17.5 +6 = 23.5 with a -11 on the attack roll due to multiweapon fighting
17.5 + 4 = 21.5 = with a -10 (first iterative attack)
17.6 + 3 = 20.5 with a -13 (2nd iterative attack)
I'm getting a DPR of 180, assuming you hit every time and assuming none of those hits are crits. I'm not considering your whole Dex because it's not specified, but I'm considering some of it: the bit you mentioned from your Ability increases at levels 4,8, and 12. and from the combination of Power Attack MWF, I'm seeing attack penalties on all your attacks ranging from -6 to -13.
Am I getting this right? It is very easy for me to miss stuff, and I'm not working out the arithmetic on paper.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
nibmus wrote: One of my players wants to play the Kasatha race which has four arms and uses the multi-weapon fighting feat assuming he would gain 4 attacks during a full-round action.
This sounds reasonable to me but it makes me wonder why anyone playing a rogue would not choose this as TWf is just a heavily watered-down version of this.
I am trying to determine if this is fair as I can see the rogue on their team becoming quite jealous and I'm wondering whether I should just stick to the core races.
Kasatha is an advanced race, so they are likely to overshadow other 1st level characters. By 12th level, it won't make as much of a difference... the kukri wielding slayer posted above barely outdamages a wizard saying "I cast fireball" and requires a lot more setup.
Let's see how your build compares with my Angry Bird build.
Tengu Claws
1Ranger1: Freebooter, Freebooter’s Bane, Iron Will, BAB+1
2R1Warpriest1: Weapon Focus Claws, Lesser Blessing of Destruction, (worships Dahak), Spells, Sacred Weapon 1d6
3R1W1Witch1: White Haired Witch, White Hair, Weapon Focus White Hair
4R1W2H1: Fervor1d6, BAB+2
5R1W3H1: Endurance, Weapon Versatility Claws, BAB+3
6R1W4H1: Channel Energy, Sacred Weapon +1, Destruction +2, BAB+4
7R1W5H1: Sacred Weapon 1d8, Fervor 2d6, (acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord), Weapon Focus Gore
8R1W5H1UMonk1: Unarmed 1d6, Monk Stuff, Improved Grapple, BAB+5
9R1W5H1M1Living Monolith1: Ka Stone: Enlarge, Toughness, Weapon Focus Armor Spikes
10R1W6H1M1L1: Greater Grapple, Destruction +3, BAB+6
11R1W7H1M1L1: Hamatula Strike, Sacred Armor +1, BAB+7
So Tengu with Claws start out with 2 Claws and a Bite. The level in White Haired Witch grants a Hair Attack. And I'm giving him a Helm of the Mammoth Lord for a Gore Attack. Every hit with the White Hair scores a free Grapple Attack, and every successful Grapple Attack scores Armor Spike Damage. Hamatula Strike gives every successful attack with a Piercing Weapon--Bite and Gore and with Versatile Weapon, the Claws as well--a free Grapple Attack, sort of doubling the Attacks/round.
2 Claws
Bite
Gore
Hair
+ Grapple and Armor Spikes with every one of these = 10 Attacks/Round to your 7.
The regular Damage on all these Attacks is replaced with Sacred Weapon Damage. At level 7, this becomes 1d8. The level in Living Monolith raises this to 2d6. I'm giving this character a Wand of Strong Jaw and raising the Natural Attacks to 4d6. And I'm giving him a Wand of Lead Blades raising the Damage of the Armor Spikes to 3d6. Freebooter's Bane grants a +1 Attack and Damage. Enlarge Person Grants +1 Damage. The Lesser Blessing of Destruction Grants +3. Giving him a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists gives all his Attacks a +1, and lets him use his Sacred Weapon Ability to use a fancy enchantment. Let's say Frost, for an extra +1d6/attack. Each use of this Ability only hits 1 weapon, but each use only takes a Swift Action. He'd probably use Fervor to Buff Himself with a Bull Strength before doing that granting him a +2 Attack and Damage on all 10 Attacks first. He can keep doing this throughout combat, though. The first round, maybe the round before Combat, he would spend self-buffing: Wand a Standard Action; Freebooter's Bane as a Move Action, Destruction as a Swift Action.
+1 Freebooters' Bane
+3 Lesser Blessing of Destruction
+2 Bull Strength
+1 AoMF
+1 Enlarge Person
=+8
His BAB is significantly lower than yours: +7 to your +12/+7/+2, but my character does not have any attack penalties from Power Attack or multiweapon fighting. Also, the Ka Stone gives back a +1, so that is offset.
What are we up to?
5 Natural Attacks: 5(5d6)=80.5
5 Armor Spike Attacks: 5(4d6)= 70
So that's 150.7, but with the +'s, that goes up by +80, so 230.7. I didn't include your character's full Dex Mod, but I also didn't include my character's full ST Mod. Also, I haven't spent anywhere near your 73,000gp on magic items yet.
My point here is that 2 extra arms don't necessarily make you the most devastating Full Attacker in the party.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote: So, his Kukris do 1d4 + Sneak Attack 4d6, and he has 7 attacks/round: 3 primary due to BAB and 3 off-hand + 1 more due to improved 2 weapon fighting. At level 7 he gets Quick Dirty Trick to lock in his Sneak Attack Damage and Shatter Defenses at level 12. And his Power Attack is off of BAB+12, so +4 Damage with his first Attack an his off hand weapons, +2 with his second, and +1 with his third. So, 1d4+4d6= 16.5. You don't say what your starting Dex is, but you specify that you are raising your Dex 3 times. I'll assume an odd number for your Dex, and give you +2 due to Dex to Damage.
You are giving your self 4 +3 Kukris: +1, Agile (+1) and Cruel (+1)
4(18,308) = 73,232gp
4(17.5+6)= 4(23.5) = 94 with a -6 on the Attack roll due to Power Attack and MWF
17.5 +6 = 23.5 with a -11 on the attack roll due to multiweapon fighting
17.5 + 4 = 21.5 = with a -10 (first iterative attack)
17.6 + 3 = 20.5 with a -13 (2nd iterative attack)
I'm getting a DPR of 180, assuming you hit every time and assuming none of those hits are crits. I'm not considering your whole Dex because it's not specified, but I'm considering some of it: the bit you mentioned from your Ability increases at levels 4,8, and 12. and from the combination of Power Attack MWF, I'm seeing attack penalties on all your attacks ranging from -6 to -13.
Am I getting this right? It is very easy for me to miss stuff, and I'm not working out the arithmetic on paper.
I'm not sure how this is a question, but starting Dex is 20. Of course, full big six.
Attacks beyond the first two are really there to fish for crits and sneak attacks. I could rework it into a crit build, but being able to pull all the other nice stuff apart from DPR is worth it.
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