If I'm wounded 3, get knocked down to 0 hit points by a fireball, can I spend my hero points to use Heroic Recovery to avoid dying? Or does the order of operations not work out in my favor?
I think if you are running around at wounded 3, you probably need to use your hero point to reroll the save. Wounded 3 is pretty much "mostly dead," regardless of how much HP you have.
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Heroic Recovery says that you can do so when your dying condition would increase. In this case, your dying condition is increasing from 0 to 4, so I'd say you can spend your hero points and stabilize.
Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to avoid death. You can do this when your dying condition would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don’t gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don’t lose it or decrease its value.
I would that yes, it works to avoid dying because you kinda is increasing your dying value. So you would go from dying 4 to stabilized instead of becoming a corpse.
Doesn't it have to be your turn in order for you to use Heroic Recovery?
Doesn't it have to be your turn in order for you to use Heroic Recovery?
That's one of two possible triggers (the other being the one mentioned up thread).
Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to avoid death. You can do this when your dying condition would increase. You lose the dying condition entirely and stabilize with 0 Hit Points. You don’t gain the wounded condition or increase its value from losing the dying condition in this way, but if you already had that condition, you don’t lose it or decrease its value.I would that yes, it works to avoid dying because you kinda is increasing your dying value. So you would go from dying 4 to stabilized instead of becoming a corpse.
It might be intended, but I don't think that RAW permits it, since Dying 0 isn't an actual condition, in the same vein that Frightened 0, Enfeebled 0, etc. is a condition, you aren't considered to have it increase, you recently acquiring it. If it increases, that means it has to have already been there, which in Dying's case, would always have a value beginning from 1.
A similar argument can be made for abilities dealing with Poisons, Diseases, and so on, whose effects improve how effective you are at shrugging off existing Poisons and Diseases afflicting you. If you have an ability that deals with existing stages of Poison, Stage 0 isn't a thing.
Same concept here.
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If it's ambiguous, err on the side of "not dead" since this improves the game experience more than any other interpretation.
Interesting way to look at it. However:
If you gain the dying condition while wounded, increase your dying condition value by your wounded value.It looks like you gain the dying condition, then increase it by your wounded value. So it is, indeed, being increased.
That sentence is there because you're increasing the dying value you are receiving by the wounded value. If you become Dying 1, and are Wounded 2, you instead increase it to Dying 3, for example.
If it worked the way you are suggesting, being that you are Wounded 1 and Dying 0, by that logic, you should then go back to Dying 1 if Dying 0 is somehow a condition like everyone is saying and making it out to be. It's not.
In fact, that sentence proves Dying 0 isn't a condition, because you would have to gain the condition, but if you have Dying 0, that means you already have the condition, which means it increases it back to Wounded 1, or 2, or whatever value Wounded you have. It creates a repeating cycle that automatically kills you when you have a Wounded value of 4 or higher (or if you have Doomed, reducing the Wounded requirement as appropriate). Or, another interpretation would be that Wounded does nothing because it only works when you gain a condition, not when you already have it as it being Dying 0.
This is basically the "Dead condition doesn't mean I can't act or do anything" argument back in PF1.
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It doesn't say any of the things you just said. It says if you gain the dying condition, then increase your dying condition. The hero point says "when your dying condition would increase" and wounded says "increase your dying condition." How are those not the same thing? Whether you increase it before or after it's applied, you are still increasing it, which is all that the hero point requires.
EDIT: You seem to be reading it as "Gain the dying condition equal to 1+your wounded condition" which is not what it says. It says "when you gain the dying condition, increase your dying condition," which lines up almost exactly with the phrasing in hero points. There's very little reason to think that you couldn't use a hero point, since the trigger for those is "when your dying condition would increase," meaning the hero point is spent before it increases and its effects applied.
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If it's ambiguous, err on the side of "not dead" since this improves the game experience more than any other interpretation.
QFT.
If in doubt, go with makes the most fun at your table. Games are about having fun, remember?
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If it worked the way you are suggesting, being that you are Wounded 1 and Dying 0, by that logic, you should then go back to Dying 1 if Dying 0 is somehow a condition like everyone is saying and making it out to be. It's not.You've misinterpreted what the other poster was saying.
To apply their suggested reading to the example of being wounded 1:
You hit zero HP and gain the dying condition. It would be dying 1, but it's actually dying 2 because you increase it for your Wounded condition - thus the "You can do this when your dying condition would increase." clause applies.
Rather than reading it as you hit zero HP and gain the dying condition. It's value is 2 because you were wounded 1, but that doesn't count as your dying condition having increased.
Correct. Being dropped to 0 hit points put you at Dying 1 or Dying 2 (if it was a crit). Being wounded would then increase your dying condition, but at that point you can decide to spend your remaining hero points. With things that have triggers, the specific phrasing becomes very important. The key words in the two sections are "increases your dying condition" and "would increase." Would increase means that it triggers before the increase, which is what needs to happen to live in this situation.
As far as I know, nothing in the game drops you directly to dying 4. Not even Massive Damage, which just ignores the Dying condition altogether.
(There might be a spell that causes Dying 4. I haven't read through all of the higher level spells).
Explaining the Wounded/Dying/Death rules would be a great blog/twitch for someone at Paizo to do. I've seen all sorts of confusing interpretations at the table. Half the time people think you go to Wounded=Dying when you're brought back conscious instead of whatever your Wounded condition was increasing by 1. It's caused a couple of tables I've been at to come to a halt for a few minutes trying to sort it all out.
At worst, I think its ambiguous, meaning the GM would be free to interpret. However, a strict reading of the rules seems to suggest that you first gain dying 0 THEN increase it by 3. I can certainly see the argument though that the rule(s) imply "the value of your dying condition is 1 plus your wounded condition the moment you hit 0 HP. To be clear though, I don't believe Dying 0 is a condition, but I do think the rules can be read to say that you go to Dying 1 and then increase by your wounded condition (as that's specifically what the rules state).
On the bright side, it could be worse. You could be a level 1 character that gets crit by an attack that deals 3d8 normally. Massive damage (what happened to me) skips the dying condition altogether and goes straight to dead. :(
On the bright side, it could be worse. You could be a level 1 character that gets crit by an attack that deals 3d8 normally. Massive damage (what happened to me) skips the dying condition altogether and goes straight to dead. :(
*laughs in dwarven barbarian with con 16*
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On the bright side, it could be worse. You could be a level 1 character that gets crit by an attack that deals 3d8 normally. Massive damage (what happened to me) skips the dying condition altogether and goes straight to dead. :(*laughs in dwarven barbarian with con 16*
Yeah, that would have been nice. Still would have put me unconscious but at least alive. My elven bard on the other hand . . .