Answering more generally but it sounds like you should disrupt the March and reinforce the need for a base somehow? Both through attacks and NPCs making suggestions
What do you mean about running two together ? Do you mean the same characters doing two plots? If so why? Is this because they are meandering off course - so you want to set them up with something else ? Why do you want to run two together ?
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Looking for any ideas on how to manage the situation.The second question is about running two adventure paths together.
Does anyone have any suggestions, which path would mesh well with Inronfang Invasion ?Cheers !
Second question first - why would you do that?
An AP progresses towards a pinnacle. If you try and combine another AP you risk doing justice to neither and confusing the storyline.Which leads me to ask - did you have a session 0 and do the players know you are going through an AP?
Before things get too far (and if your group is one that likes to go in completely random directions) then it might be worth asking if everyone is agreeable to playing the AP which may mean from time to time that you need to nudge them away from drifting too far from the arena.
For the immediate situation - depends on how much local knowledge the players / PCs have. The way the Nirmathi handle invasions is to pull back and wait for the invaders to leave, using guerilla tactics to deal with any patrols. The independence streak is strong and running off to Tamran is basically an admission of failure. Even if they could get through it takes their focus off Phaendar and allows the invaders to stay without any consequences. Of course the GM knows that this time it is different, but the players/PCs/NPCs won't know that.
You could also have a refugee or two show up from further down the road, explaining to the PCs that the road to Tamran is blocked and heavily patrolled (and this is part of one of the later encounters anyway). They won't have enough food to feed everyone, especially during a forced march (a Profession Soldier or Survival roll should confirm this), and would also leave a clear trail for patrols to chase them down and then they will be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Hello everyone !
I recently started running the Inronfang Invasion adventure path.
Not me and my group are having lots of fun with it. They just managed to escape Phaendar in the dead of night with a group of 15 townsfolk.
Nowz here is, where things started getting a bit problematic.
The players decided, that they will make a forced march through the forest, along the river banks, heading straight for Tamran.
Now, I don't want to be railroading things too much, but at the same time, this would make some parts of the Path totally obsolete, along with the main idea of establishimg a base of operations etc.
Did anyone else had the same problem ?
Looking for any ideas on how to manage the situation.
Seizing narrative control is a favorite of my players. They had me rewrite most of Tide of Honor (5th module of Jade Regent) and The Divinity Drive (6th module of Iron Gods) by scavenging the setting and writing new plot. However, we have an agreement. They can do things as they want, but they have to arrange their story so that the next module will still make sense.
Ironically, at this moment my Ironfang Invasion party is at the eastmost edge of the map "Southern Nirmathas and Ironfang Territories" on the inside front cover of Trail of the Hunted. They are in the village of Polebridge, which I invented as a village 20 miles east of Phaendar, fighting the Ironfang Legion garrison that maintained a roadblock there.
Blockades on the trade road to Tamran are mentioned in Trail of the Hunted:
The refugees can’t wander alone in the forest forever. Traveling to a nearby town is a possibility, but over 100 miles of difficult terrain lie between them and the small city of Tamran, causing them to cross dangerous woods and likely battle the Ironfang Legion at every step. (If they intercept the centaur messenger Yorc or the Ironfang supply convoy—encounters H4 and H5, respectively—the PCs may already realize the Legion has established blockades along this road).
The bridge in Polebridge seemed a great place for a blockade. I originally garrisoned the blockade with 11 Hobgoblin Soldiers (1st level), 4 Hobgoblin Heavy Troopers (2nd level), and 2 Hobgoblin Archers (4th level). The following week I added Lieutenant Mean, a 5th-level spriggan. The latest week I added 7 more Hobgoblin Soldiers and 2 more Hobgoblin Heavy Troopers. The creature names are unfamiliar because I am converting the Ironfang Invasion adventure path to Pathfinder 2nd Edition (some details here. It also mention why they are in Polebridge). Note that my 5-member 4th-level party is winning against that force that by the book is supposed to be twice as powerful as them. They are very good players.
It is possible to create new adventures and my players are enjoying themselves against the challenge of Polebridge's garrison. But I feel like I am juggling plates. My players will forgive me if I drop one.
Another change they made to Trail of the Hunted is their efficiency. They cleared out the Children of Stone caves, sections K and L, a mere six days after the invasion of Phaendar. They had the advantage that Aubrin and Rhyna were among the 40 refugees, so they would leave those two guarding the refugees while the party scouted for food and safer shelter, unencumbered by followers. Because of their speed, I had to rearrange the story so that Camp Red Jaw and the hobgoblin patrols were already in place north of Phaendar on the day of the invasion.
Thus, if you want to encourage your party by in-game methods to remain in the forest north of Phaendar, you could have them encounter roadblocks on the trade road to Phaendar. Make them weak enough that the party always wins, but with enough Ironfang Recruits shooting arrows that a refugee becomes severely injured or maybe killed every battle. They might realize that they cannot take the refugees down the trade road without losing half of them.
If they persist, then they will probably move into the forest itself and encounter Section J, Hunter's Stead, at its given location. You can move encounters F1, F2, F3, G1, G2, G3, H2, H3, and H4 to their path. (G4, H1, and H5 would be tough to move). G3, Stone Child Hunting Party, could alert them to the Children of Stone caves if they want a safe shelter for a few days. Because a forced march means no strength left to forage, so they--including the PCs--will be starving and fatigued.
An easier method would be to ask you players out of character to please keep close enough to the plot so that you can use the module without rearranging it. Point out that if they do reach safe territory, then they have no reason to continue the adventure. Their characters will reture and some other heroes will try to contact the Chernesardo rangers in Fangs of War.
The second question is about running two adventure paths together.
Does anyone have any suggestions, which path would mesh well with Ironfang Invasion ?Cheers !
I cannot imagine running a single party through two adventures, "Yesterday we were in Nirmathis and today we are in Varisia and tomorrow we will be back in Nirmathis." Likewise, alternating modules, such as Burnt Offerings from Rise of the Runelords followed by Brinewall Legacy from Jade Regent (both take place in Sandpoint in Varisia) would have the PCs at too high a level for some modules.
On the other hand, running two separate parties in the same region with plans for them to meet is possible. My friend Stewart Sinex did that in an Legend of the Five Ring campaign. In Saturday game sessions one party aided the revolutionary modernists and in Tuesday game sessions the other party aided the loyal traditionalists in a civil war in Rokugan. They met to battle each other in a final Saturday game. The traditionalists won.
I have seen mention of a few Pathfinder modules set in or near Nirmathis. Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale is set in a valley between Varisia and Nirmathis. Crypt of the Everflame is set in northern Nirmathis and has two other modules as sequels. Fangwood Keep occurs east of Phaendar and south of the Marideth River.
This one seems easy. Safety. Shelter. Supplies. How can Aubrin travel on a forced march with her injuries? How can anyone go on a forced march without provisions or shelter. You sleep outside with no shelter, you march too far, people get fatigue and exhaustion penalties. These villagers have low Con, they physically can't do a forced march for long. They are already exhausted from the midnight escape.
Hit them with the bad water event. Use the book encounters. They are designed to emphasize the party's goals of securing shelter, supplies, and safety for the villagers.
Have the survivors begging them for a break, for better food, for shelter, pestering the PCs, "What's the plan? Where are we going? I'm hungry!" If they press ahead anyway, describe the survivors as looking more ragged, dirty, pale, exhausted, etc. People start trailing behind, getting picked off by beasts or hobgoblins.
Perhaps even have the survivors start openly resenting the PCs, or striking off on their own. These are Nirmathi people after all, and they won't tolerate tyrants for long.
This may be a problem that can solve itself if you continue on the AP as written.
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My group is fast approaching the part where they might consider going to Tamran (or some other urban center) as opposed to setting up a wilderness camp. If that happens, I’ll probably run a couple of the Ironfang scouting encounters then bring them face to face with an overwhelming effort by the hobgoblins to block all the assessable avenues to Tamran. They had to anticipate this would be the most likely course of action by any survivors of the invasion and blocking supply lines is a fairly common practice by invading armies. Plus, I can introduce the idea that the invaders are using the highway to bring supplies to their own troops and set the seed for the PCs trying to disrupt those efforts.
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1) Make sure the PCs know that traveling to Tamran is impractical. Have NPCs earn them, flat out refuse, or drop from exhaustion unable to travel.
2) Make sure your players know this is an adventure path and it won't end well for anyone if they refuse to follow the path of the adventure.
3) If they don't need the warnings of 1 or 2, then make sure they run into those dangers. Some have been suggested above. You can also have them walk into book 2, running into the troll mercenaries, higher level Ironfang patrols, murderous fey, or even Ibzairiak himself. Or put the blight in their way. Book 5 challengs should make them rethink some things.
But don't do any of that if the characters, followed by the players, haven't been warned. Don't punish them for acting reasonably with the information they have available. Make sure they have red flags. I think the Darkblight would make an especially good deterrent because the PCs should see signs they are walking into it ahead of time. If they bump into strong enough Ironfang Soldiers soldiers, they aren't getting away. I suppose Ibzairiak could let people get away with some scars, but that doesn't necessarily encourage them to turn back rather than push forward.
Perhaps even have the survivors start openly resenting the PCs, or striking off on their own. These are Nirmathi people after all, and they won't tolerate tyrants for long.
I tried to figure out how Nirmathi people view leadership. They are hostile to government authority on the national scale, given their history of revolution. That left room for respect for local government, such as an elected mayor or sheriff, but Phaendar had no such mayor or sheriff. If they lack any government authority, then how do they make decisions as a group?
In my campaign, the refugees were camped on Veld's garden and the party had returned with news that the dwarven logging camp of Gristledown was dead. The refugees had been concerned with food and shelter, but now they needed to decide on their long-range plans. Therefore, the adults (a lot of the refugees were children) had a meeting.
NPC wizard Veld had allowed the refugees onto her tiny homestead because she had decided to abandon her home and go west to Longshadow. She could cast Create Food, so she was willing to take five people with her. Player character Sam the goatherder offered her some goats to feed others if more wanted to go with her. Edran the bard was the main advocate for going to Tamran. A few townsfolk wanted to remain near Phaendar, since scouting revealed that many villagers had lived enslaved to the hobgoblins. Aubrin the Green wanted to go north to a fort of the Chernesardo rangers. She had not been to the fort before, so the route would need scouting. She mentioned some caves that revolutionaries had used back during the War of Independence. She figured that they had probably filled with wild beasts in the meanwhile. Her scouts, AKA the party, could clear them out for the refugees to stay in while the scouts scouted out the route to Fort Ristin. Since the caves were to the east, that direction also satisfied the people who wanted to go to Tamran. The decision was a combination of majority vote and a compromise on what work volunteers (i.e., the party) would be willing to do. Veld, six refugees, and one goat left for Longshadow separately.
Once the party cleared the xulgath cultists out of the Misthome caves, the refugees were inclined to settle down and rest there. Though some of the xulgath's food was suspicious and would be fed to the champion's velociraptor animal companion, the identifiable food would support them for many days. Aubrin could take the time to train refugees to fight better.
If Pete Rutz's party tried the forced march to Tamran and the refugees rebel near the Misthome caves, then the party could clear the caves as a safe place to rest for a few days and get back on track on the module. The several game sessions to clear the caves would give Pete Rutz time to persuade the party to go north to start Fangs of War.
Aubrin, Veld, Lirosa, and Taidel should all have some share of knowledge about the Chernasardo Rangers, and should emphasize to the survivors that making contact with them is their top priority after securing provisions and shelter. Use Knowledge (geography/history/local) checks liberally.
As soon as Aubrin recovers, she should emphasize making contact with the elusive Rangers. She can pester the PCs to investigate the tree house in All-Eye's Wood. The various NPCs can be used to communicate the various needs. Food (Jet), shelter (Rhyna), supplies (Vane), weapons (Kining), survivor morale (Aubrin/Edran) and enemy movements (Lirosa/Taidel) . Of course, all these needs overlap in various ways.
As far as Nirmathi culture goes, the books outline their highly decentralized culture. If a town needs something repaired, a group of villagers will go around taking a collection. There are dozens of unique militias and guerrilla outfits operating independently. The cities are basically totally autonomous. Weslen Gavirk only has real power in the immediate area around Tamran.
The fact is, there often isn't consensus for decisions and infighting is common. In fact, it's what makes Nirmathas such a perfect target for the Ironfang Invasion. Their decentralized society means mounting a defense or counter-attack against a mobile foe like the Ironfangs is nearly impossible. So the only hope is a group of ragtag survivors heroes leading a nigh-hopeless underdog insurrection against a much greater and better organized foe.
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2) Make sure your players know this is an adventure path and it won't end well for anyone if they refuse to follow the path of the adventure
I think this is excellent advice for all campaigns, not just Ironfang Invasion. Players should be creative and should be allowed to resolve challenges creatively, but there is also a social contract of sorts between the players and the GM. The latter promises to run a fair and honest campaign working with the players, not against them, to maximize fun for all. The players promise to make decisions in good faith and not intentionally take actions meant to disrupt the campaign or frustrate the GM. You are all suppose to be there to experience what the author wrote, not do everything in your power to avoid the story.