Hi guys,
I need some clarification on this feat ( related to PFS! ):
BARGAIN HUNTER | FEAT 1 | General Skill
"You can Earn Income using Diplomacy, spending your days hunting for bargains and reselling at a profit. You can also spend time specifically sniffing out a great bargain on an item; this works as if you were using Earn Income with Diplomacy, except instead of gaining money, you purchase the item at a discount equal to the money you would have gained, gaining the item for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost. Finally, if you select Bargain Hunter during character creation at 1st level, you start play with an additional 2 gp.
Im tyring to figure my option:
1. "You can Earn Income using Diplomacy".
Reading "Earn income" rules i could already use Diplomacy to Earn Income ( like i could use Religion or Acrobatics ), so this part add nothing to me.
"In some cases, the GM might let you use a different skill to Earn Income through specialized work. Usually, this is scholarly work, such as using Religion in a monastery to study old texts—but giving sermons at a church would still fall under Performance instead of Religion. You also might be able to use physical skills to make money, such as using Acrobatics to perform feats in a circus or Thievery to pick pockets. "
2. "You can also spend time specifically sniffing out a great bargain on an item; this works as if you were using Earn Income with Diplomacy, except instead of gaining money, you purchase the item at a discount equal to the money you would have gained, gaining the item for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost. "
This is the less clear part, cause i don't see any advantage of using this option ( point at the "you can also" ).
8 days of downtime| 5cp x day | I wanna buy a 30 cp item
- Earn Income (diplomacy): 40 cp --> After 8 day, got item and 10 cp more
- Discount on item : -40 cp --> After 8 day, got item and loose 10 cp
In the worst scenario, i've lost 10 cp.
In the best, it's still useless as option cause i could have get the item with "earn money" option.
What your opinion on this?
okkappa wrote:
2. "You can also spend time specifically sniffing out a great bargain on an item; this works as if you were using Earn Income with Diplomacy, except instead of gaining money, you purchase the item at a discount equal to the money you would have gained, gaining the item for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost. "
The only way this makes sense to me is if you can do his in addition to Earn Income.
In other words, "you can also" does not mean "alternatively" it means while you Earn Income, you can simultaneously bargain hunt for the item you want. So you're getting to Earn Income twice, with the second attempt being used to purchase an item.
What's not clear is if you can only do this when you Earn Income and if so, do you roll separately? I would probably rule Yes to both.
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I'd strongly disagree with N N 959. 'You can also' has a long history of being synonymous with 'You may instead', and that's how it's used here, IMO. In particular, since this is PFS, I'm positive that the PFS ruling will not be 'double your income'.
On the original question:
1. By default you need GM permission and often specific circumstances to do this, but with Bargain Hunter you need neither. So this is useful for that purpose.
2. You can use this on ludicrously expensive items, and always use it at any level, while most income earning activities are capped by the area you are in. So this isn't super great for buying cheap stuff at 1st level, but is superb for discounting magic items or other expensive stuff, and even better at high levels.
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If it's for PFS, the main and only advantage is that you can use Diplomacy for Earn Income checks. Without it, you're stuck with Lore, Crafting or Performance.
okkappa wrote: Hi guys,
I need some clarification on this feat ( related to PFS! ):
Okay, reading rules questions with PFS in mind.
okkappa wrote:
BARGAIN HUNTER | FEAT 1 | General Skill
"You can Earn Income using Diplomacy, spending your days hunting for bargains and reselling at a profit. You can also spend time specifically sniffing out a great bargain on an item; this works as if you were using Earn Income with Diplomacy, except instead of gaining money, you purchase the item at a discount equal to the money you would have gained, gaining the item for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost. Finally, if you select Bargain Hunter during character creation at 1st level, you start play with an additional 2 gp.
Im tyring to figure my option:
1. "You can Earn Income using Diplomacy".
Reading "Earn income" rules i could already use Diplomacy to Earn Income ( like i could use Religion or Acrobatics ), so this part add nothing to me.
"In some cases, the GM might let you use a different skill to Earn Income through specialized work. Usually, this is scholarly work, such as using Religion in a monastery to study old texts—but giving sermons at a church would still fall under Performance instead of Religion. You also might be able to use physical skills to make money, such as using Acrobatics to perform feats in a circus or Thievery to pick pockets. "
When you see a passage like "the GM might allow you to do some extra stuff", the GM in the case of PFS is the campaign leadership, not the person sitting across you at the table. Because PFS wants to be a campaign where you can easily take a character from one table to another without a lot of uncertainty about local house rules, the freedom of local GMs is a bit reduced.
So unless you have a boon or ability saying that you can use alternative skills to Earn Income, you can't, in PFS. Bargain Hunter is an example of such an ability, that allows you to use an alternative skill.
okkappa wrote: 2. "You can also spend time specifically sniffing out a great bargain on an item; this works as if you were using Earn Income with Diplomacy, except instead of gaining money, you purchase the item at a discount equal to the money you would have gained, gaining the item for free if your earned income equals or exceeds its cost. " So yeah, this is really more a flavor thing, because it doesn't really let you save more money than you could have instead just earned.
Earn Income goes day by day, not in larger chunks... so the scenario of 5 cp per day and trying to buy a 30 cp item wouldn't be 8 days and "lost" money, it'd just be 6 days and having your item.
The only time you "lose" money with that part of Bargain Hunter is if you choose to spend the last day working when the amount you are making per day would reduce the item's price by more than is left of the price (i.e. you're earning 3 gp per day towards a 25 gp item and on day 7 you decide "I will spend 1 more day of downtime instead of paying the final 1 gp of the price" - and that is still only an actual loss if you could have performed the same level of task to Earn Income normally with the same skill.
Deadmanwalking wrote: I'd strongly disagree with N N 959. 'You can also' has a long history of being synonymous with 'You may instead', and that's how it's used here, IMO. In particular, since this is PFS, I'm positive that the PFS ruling will not be 'double your income'. What I said...
NN wrote: The only way this makes sense to me is if you can do his in addition to Earn Income. So you're strongly disagreeing that this isn't the only way it makes sense to me?
The OP's contention is that it doesn't seem to be letting him do much of anything. I agree (outside of using Diplo with PFS). Outside of PFS, I don't see much of a benefit here. I didn't say this is what it means. Please stop trying to pick a fight.
Quote: 2. You can use this on ludicrously expensive items, and always use it at any level, while most income earning activities are capped by the area you are in. So this isn't super great for buying cheap stuff at 1st level, but is superb for discounting magic items or other expensive stuff, and even better at high levels. I don't see how that follows. The skill simply lets you use Diplomacy with Earn Income and apply it to an item. If your Earn Income attempt is capped, so would your Bargain Hunting.
Very nice feat ( mostly, diplomacy as earning skill )
Depends the situation, you could even get your hands on something which is not available on the market ( because you would not necessarely trade with traders, but with clients too ).
N N 959 wrote: I don't see how that follows. The skill simply lets you use Diplomacy with Earn Income and apply it to an item. If your Earn Income attempt is capped, so would your Bargain Hunting. The level for your Bargain Hunting task certaintly can be capped at something lower than your character's level, but it wouldn't make sense if the cap were lower than the level of the item you're looking to buy.
And that level could easily be higher than the cap for task level of whichever skill you might be trying to find work using. Plus since Diplomacy is the skill used for Bargain Hunter and is not one of the "go to" skills for Earn Income normally, there are likely plenty of situations in which the effective gain from Bargain Hunter is significant.
Example: You're looking to buy a ring of energy resistance so you can presumably use Diplomacy to Earn Income as a level 6 task... but the city you are shopping in doesn't have any other level 6 tasks for a diplomat (no hostage situations to negotiate or what have you), so your next-best job option could be "the docks are always hiring laborers" at a level 2 task using a skill your not as good at as you are at Diplomacy.
thenobledrake wrote: .... but it wouldn't make sense if the cap were lower than the level of the item you're looking to buy. Yeah, I'm not understanding why that would be true. I don't see anything in the rule that says your Earn Income task has to equal to the level of the item? If that were the intent, why wouldn't that be stated explicitly?
If you are looking to get a discount on a level X item, why wouldn't the level of that task be the level of the item?
If it were the intent that the level of the task be something else, why wouldn't that be stated explicitly?
The task level is the same, since you trade.
The more you proceed the higher the profit which means you sell for more and buy for less.
As for creating magic items.
You will simply use Diplomacy to trade instead of using a lore.
If i want to work for a specific item i would simply do What I always do.
Trade in the best way I can.
Then my earnings will serve to cover part of the bargain.
thenobledrake wrote: If you are looking to get a discount on a level X item, why wouldn't the level of that task be the level of the item? Because the rule explicitlly states you use the Earn Income mechanic. So you're capped at whatever you can do with Earn Income.
Quote: If it were the intent that the level of the task be something else, why wouldn't that be stated explicitly? They do. It's called using Earn Income.
I suspect I don't fully understand Earn Income if you think it's clear that the level is suppose to the item and not whatever your normal EI cap is.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Not so cut and dry as that. "Your earn income cap" isn't a thing that exists in the Earn Income rules the feat refers to. The normal function of the feat wouldn't be based on an Organized Play rule.
HammerJack wrote: Not so cut and dry as that. "Your earn income cap" isn't a thing that exists in the Earn Income rules the feat refers to. The normal function of the feat wouldn't be based on an Organized Play rule. But inside of PFS, there is task cap at level -2 and I am not understanding why Bargain Hunter gets to ignore that.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Level -2 will most likely be the correct answer. I don't actually disagree with that.
But, kind of like the questions people have had about Magical Shorthand, it's going to be a messy gray area that doesn't get read consistently in Org Play until the campaign rulings in the guide are more fleshed out than they are now.
Part of the argument going on, though, is probably that this thread should be in a different forum, since "how does Bargain Hunter work in PFS?" is not the same as "How does Bargain Hunter work?" and the latter question is more appropriate to this forum.
Outside of PFS, if your GM already lets you use Diplomacy to Earn Income, all the Feat does is give you an additional 2GP at creation...
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