Can you use a summon spell, such as summon elemental, to summon a weaker or stronger kind of creature than normal?
For example, say I'm a 12th-level conjurer, and have prepared a 6th-level summon elemental spell. I'm looking to ambush somebody coming up the road and so want to summon something inconspicuous before they arrive. Could I summon, say, a living boulder (Bestiary 2, a level 2 creature) as a level 7 creature with level 7 creature stats? If not, why not?
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I wouldn't allow it at my table. By that logic I could use a level 9 Summon Animal to summon a bunny that just happens to one-shot anything it touches. That's how you get a Monty Python Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog. Summoning is about manifesting something that actually exists to assist you.
I think you could instead summon something that's actually level 7 and then use some other magic to disguise it as something more innocuous, or make it invisible, or summon something that can disguise itself. There's rules for what checks the person coming up the road could employ to possibly perceive or detect such a deception (such as True Seeing or the like).
Now, an Illusory Creature would work fine for this. Heightened to level 7 it'd have the stat block of a level 7 creature but could appear to be literally anything you want it to be.
Yeah, but the stat levels are fairly arbitrary. They exist only to make sure there are appropriate challenges for heroes to fight and to clue the GM in on what a typical example of that creature looks like. There's rules for raising or lowering a creature's stats already, and there are plenty of published examples of ranges of a single kind of creature, such as level -1 orcs, level 3 orcs, and I'm sure there's a level 5+ orc in some module somewhere.
I wouldn't be summoning a shark, I'd be summoning the great white of great whites from Jaws. I wouldn't be summoning a whale, I'd be summoning the white whale of Moby Dick. And yes, it wouldn't be a bunny, but the Killer Rabbit of Carbannog (perhaps it's one of Cayden Cailean's pets, or a breeding experiment from Hermia that resulted in a specimen that is at its biological zenith, or Pooky). You know, legendary creatures.
The game already allows for weak creatures and strong creatures. Given time, I'm sure we will see published examples of legendary creatures too (if they don't already exist). They're just normal animals (or elementals, or whatever, they're just nastier versions thereof).
I know it won't work at every table (not every GM wants to have to look up level-appropriate stats on the fly or let a player set up some in advance to save time), but aside from the lack of a willing GM, is there really any rule that would prevent it?
Can you use a summon spell, such as summon elemental, to summon a weaker or stronger kind of creature than normal?
For example, say I'm a 12th-level conjurer, and have prepared a 6th-level summon elemental spell. I'm looking to ambush somebody coming up the road and so want to summon something inconspicuous before they arrive. Could I summon, say, a living boulder (Bestiary 2, a level 2 creature) as a level 7 creature with level 7 creature stats? If not, why not?
The summoned trait, which specifies you use the standard abilities for a creature you summon, except where noted otherwise in the trait, is why you can’t. Stock monsters only.
The summoned trait, which specifies you use the standard abilities for a creature you summon, except where noted otherwise in the trait, is why you can’t. Stock monsters only.Can you use a summon spell, such as summon elemental, to summon a weaker or stronger kind of creature than normal?
For example, say I'm a 12th-level conjurer, and have prepared a 6th-level summon elemental spell. I'm looking to ambush somebody coming up the road and so want to summon something inconspicuous before they arrive. Could I summon, say, a living boulder (Bestiary 2, a level 2 creature) as a level 7 creature with level 7 creature stats? If not, why not?
That's more the kind of response I was looking for.
Still, I'm not so sure that it's a clear open and shut case. It doesn't say "stock monsters only." To be precise, the trait says "...the summoned creature uses the standard abilities for a creature of its kind."
That sounds to me more like you can't summon a rabbit with a troll's regeneration or something oddball like that. It would be limited to abilities that are traditionally possessed by rabbits. The statblock numbers could still go up or down whilst keeping the same abilities.
I admit that's a bit of a stretch, but I don't think it's a very big one. In any case, it would be rather "egg-on-your-face" for the GM to tell the player "no" only then to have Paizo turn around and publish a more powerful version of said creature.
Oh wait. That's happened already.
Why couldn't I summon the nastier centipede before, but now I suddenly can? (rhetorical)
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I'd probably allow it, but I wouldn't let it be used more than once per creature. A level 2 boosted to level 7 by way of the Elite template is way overstatted.
Edit: As an example, using your two centipedes, slapping on the Elite template 10 times (to get from -1 to 9) gives the giant centipede obscene stats compared to the titan centipede. 7 more AC, 5 more attack bonus, ridiculous saves all around, a much higher poison DC. That's not okay.
I'd probably allow it, but I wouldn't let it be used more than once per creature. A level 2 boosted to level 7 by way of the Elite template is way overstatted.
I wouldn't use the elite template over and over again. Stacking templates was never really a thing in my opinion (despite some people claiming that it was permissible in past editions), nor should it be. It just gets too out of hand too quickly.
Just rebuild the creature with the higher, level-appropriate numbers. It could be as simple as glancing at some of the tables in the Gamemastery Guide. It would be even better if the player knew what he might want to summon in advance, so s/he and the GM could work out the appropriate numbers ahead of time.
I'd probably allow it, but I wouldn't let it be used more than once per creature. A level 2 boosted to level 7 by way of the Elite template is way overstatted.I wouldn't use the elite template over and over again. Stacking templates was never really a thing in my opinion (despite some people claiming that it was permissible in past editions), nor should it be. It just gets too out of hand too quickly.
Just rebuild the creature with the higher, level-appropriate numbers. It could be as simple as glancing at some of the tables in the Gamemastery Guide. It would be even better if the player knew what he might want to summon in advance, so s/he and the GM could work out the appropriate numbers ahead of time.
That way of doing it seems okay, if pre-approved. I wouldn't like it if a player sprung it on me mid-combat, in which case I'd say no because I hadn't had the chance to review the creature yet and don't want to pause the game for it.
But I'm always in favor of my players coming up with their own homebrew stuff anyway.
I would say if the player encountered or engineered said creature (ie after having his party distroyed by said rabbit) he would be able to summon one. Anything not "standard" would ether need personal experience or a lot of extra reserch.
I would say if the player encountered or engineered said creature (ie after having his party distroyed by said rabbit) he would be able to summon one. Anything not "standard" would ether need personal experience or a lot of extra reserch.
Would you not allow a character to summon a standard animal if he had not seen one, say, a polar bear, for example?
I would say if the player encountered or engineered said creature (ie after having his party distroyed by said rabbit) he would be able to summon one. Anything not "standard" would ether need personal experience or a lot of extra reserch.Would you not allow a character to summon a standard animal if he had not seen one, say, a polar bear, for example?
I think the difference is, a polar bear can be assumed to exist in the world by everyone out of character. Something like a level 7 living boulder or a gargantuan bunny is out of the norm, and thus can't be assumed to exist until the GM says it does.
RAW summons handwave the fact that the player should know what he is summoning (ie he did some reserch and knows what he can summon). I consider knowing all the regular animals/constructs/fey/plants...ect part of learning said spell even if it's just a name and general capabilities. Anything unusual such as "super bunny" would need extra reserch or personal experience.
I think the difference is, a polar bear can be assumed to exist in the world by everyone out of character. Something like a level 7 living boulder or a gargantuan bunny is out of the norm, and thus can't be assumed to exist until the GM says it does.I would say if the player encountered or engineered said creature (ie after having his party distroyed by said rabbit) he would be able to summon one. Anything not "standard" would ether need personal experience or a lot of extra reserch.Would you not allow a character to summon a standard animal if he had not seen one, say, a polar bear, for example?
True, but it's something of a moot point, is it not? You can't do anything in the game without GM approval anyway.
RAW summons handwave the fact that the player should know what he is summoning (ie he did some reserch and knows what he can summon). I consider knowing all the regular animals/constructs/fey/plants...ect part of learning said spell even if it's just a name and general capabilities. Anything unusual such as "super bunny" would need extra reserch or personal experience.
Seem to be a lot of house rules here for a Rules Discussion thread. (They are good house rules.)
I am also intrigued by this discussion. I plan to make a Summoning character for Extinction Curse. I have also considered this possibility, but have yet to find any Rules that prevent "leveling" a lower creature to fit a higher Summons. There are rules--as presented--that not only allows for it, but seem to encourage it.
Let's be honest, Summons in combat will always be roughly 4 levels below APL, but having a friend that you have Summoned since 1st level grow with you (sort of speak) is really good rping!
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I am also intrigued by this discussion. I plan to make a Summoning character for Extinction Curse. I have also considered this possibility, but have yet to find any Rules that prevent "leveling" a lower creature to fit a higher Summons.
1. Each Summon X says "you summon a common X to fight for you" of the specified creature level. How do you find a common X of that level? You go to a bestiary.
2. Such a creature has the summoned trait.
3. The summoned trait puts some restrictions on that creature from the bestiary, then says: "Otherwise, the summoned creature uses the standard
abilities for a creature of its kind."
Using anything not as published in the Bestiary is a house rule requiring GM permission, because anything not published in the Bestiary is by definition not a common creature (it has to be published to be common) and not using the standard abilities.