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Given that the description of both the Message Cantrip and Demoralize Skill is talking, can this be used as one action with the range of the cantrip?
Also would this be a good way to maintain a Hidden or Undetected state?
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It would be two actions, and it may not necessarily be RAW, but I'd allow it. That's fun.
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If I was house-ruling it, I would give a +/- 2 depending on how familiar the target is with magic.
If you are using it on superstitious bandits that don't know anything about magic? +2 since you are the mysterious spooky voice suddenly talking in their head.
If you are using it on a wizard? You are treated like that guy that talked tough over twitter, and the wizard immediately starts typing I mean messaging a reply saying "Say that to me irl, bro"
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Hilariously, last night, after posting my post that same morning... this exact situation occurred, and I allowed my wizard to coerce from a hundred feet away. Admittedly, combat hadn't happened... But that bandit was mighty confused. "God?"
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Hilariously, last night, after posting my post that same morning... this exact situation occurred, and I allowed my wizard to coerce from a hundred feet away. Admittedly, combat hadn't happened... But that bandit was mighty confused. "God?"
“Yes. I need you to build an arc!”
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Hilariously, last night, after posting my post that same morning... this exact situation occurred, and I allowed my wizard to coerce from a hundred feet away. Admittedly, combat hadn't happened... But that bandit was mighty confused. "God?"“Yes. I need you to build an arc!”
Hmm, I don't remember the story about building a semi-circle.
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I dunno. It's not like you can't already hear someone from 40 feet away if they shout. I feel like there's something else at play with demoralize'e range.
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Given that the description of both the Message Cantrip and Demoralize Skill is talking, can this be used as one action with the range of the cantrip?
Also would this be a good way to maintain a Hidden or Undetected state?
The real issue here is that the verbal component of message is not just whispering the words you want the message to be.
A verbal component is a vocalization of words of power. You must speak them in a strong voice, so it’s hard to conceal that you’re Casting a Spell.
Casting spells while hidden is generally impossible for everyone except the wizard.
As far as the range and whether message would allow you to extend it, I think it is pretty much an area of GM arbitration.
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In every game I've ever played, Message was treated as an exception to that rule. I consider it an example of specific overriding general. The whole point of the Message spell is clandestine communication.Given that the description of both the Message Cantrip and Demoralize Skill is talking, can this be used as one action with the range of the cantrip?
Also would this be a good way to maintain a Hidden or Undetected state?
The real issue here is that the verbal component of message is not just whispering the words you want the message to be.
A verbal component is a vocalization of words of power. You must speak them in a strong voice, so it’s hard to conceal that you’re Casting a Spell.
I think it is often house ruled that way, and there is nothing wrong with doing so, but there is nothing about the spell description to suggest that it doesn't follow the rules of components.
There is a lot of utility in being able to communicate messages without others knowing what you are saying, even if they know you are communicating, especially because they don't know who you are communicating with. Conceal spell and silent spell are very powerful feats that get trampled pretty quickly when GMs let every caster use them for free when it feels convenient.
Ghost sound is another spell that people often gets house ruled into ignoring the verbal components of. All of this can be fine, it is probably best not to just assume that every GM is going to do so, especially since the game has a build set aside for being able to do things like this.
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In every game I've ever played, Message was treated as an exception to that rule. I consider it an example of specific overriding general. The whole point of the Message spell is clandestine communication.Given that the description of both the Message Cantrip and Demoralize Skill is talking, can this be used as one action with the range of the cantrip?
Also would this be a good way to maintain a Hidden or Undetected state?
The real issue here is that the verbal component of message is not just whispering the words you want the message to be.
A verbal component is a vocalization of words of power. You must speak them in a strong voice, so it’s hard to conceal that you’re Casting a Spell.
The communication is clandestine (so long as they can't read lips). The spellcasting is not.
"Huh, Bob the Wizard just cast a spell and then mouthed some silent words. I wonder what that was bout?"
"Who knows? Aren't these canapes great?"
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Hmm, I don't remember the story about building a semi-circle.Hilariously, last night, after posting my post that same morning... this exact situation occurred, and I allowed my wizard to coerce from a hundred feet away. Admittedly, combat hadn't happened... But that bandit was mighty confused. "God?"“Yes. I need you to build an arc!”
Ark*
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Given that the description of both the Message Cantrip and Demoralize Skill is talking, can this be used as one action with the range of the cantrip?
Also would this be a good way to maintain a Hidden or Undetected state?
To answer your first question, per RAW, no. At best, you could argue that it's two actions, one to cast the spell, and one to actually demoralize, but there's a major disconnect within the rules that denies this combination working in the way you think it should.
For starters, utilizing the Message cantrip operates under the Cast A Spell activity, a specific type of activity that is its own thing and operates under a frequency different from usual actions in combat.
You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire. Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a variable number of actions depending on the spell, as listed in each spell’s stat block. As soon as the spellcasting actions are complete, the spell effect occurs.
The bolded sentence means that once you finish the actions that the spell requires, the spell effect happens and is resolved before continuing on with the rest of the turn. This is independent of other activities unless they are specifically called out as such, like the Reach Spell feat. And last I checked, Demoralize does not have that exception. Furthermore, once the one-action spell is finished and you proceed to Demoralize, the benefits of the spell are finished within that same action you used to cast the spell, ergo you cannot utilize the range of Message to amplify the potential area of Demoralize.
Lastly, spells give off obvious tells that they are spells and that they are being cast. Unless you take measures to counteract this (such as the Conceal spell feat chain from Wizards), or are able to see the target without them being able to see/hear you or your square, chances are the enemy will notice you.
Is this intended? Hard to say. There's no clear means of denial aside from mechanics not lining up, and aside from Bards and Sorcerers (and maybe the oddball Wizard), I don't see this tactic being widely used. Though the idea of utilizing a feat like Scare to Death to eliminate mooks via Message is amusing, I feel it gives the cantrip and unintended power boost, even if it is quite a creative and interesting combination.
Should you allow it? If the appropriate actions were expended, I don't see why not, it's not much different than casting, for example, a 1st level Fear spell utilizing an enemy's roll compared to your DC, and if you decided to invest in the social skills as a caster, being able to utilize them with your spells is a pretty neat way to synergize your talents.
But in PFS, I don't see this combination being legal to do for the reasons I mentioned above.
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Given that the description of both the Message Cantrip and Demoralize Skill is talking, can this be used as one action with the range of the cantrip?
Also would this be a good way to maintain a Hidden or Undetected state?
To answer your first question, per RAW, no. At best, you could argue that it's two actions, one to cast the spell, and one to actually demoralize, but there's a major disconnect within the rules that denies this combination working in the way you think it should.
For starters, utilizing the Message cantrip operates under the Cast A Spell activity, a specific type of activity that is its own thing and operates under a frequency different from usual actions in combat.
You cast a spell you have prepared or in your repertoire. Casting a Spell is a special activity that takes a variable number of actions depending on the spell, as listed in each spell’s stat block. As soon as the spellcasting actions are complete, the spell effect occurs.
The bolded sentence means that once you finish the actions that the spell requires, the spell effect happens and is resolved before continuing on with the rest of the turn. This is independent of other activities unless they are specifically called out as such, like the Reach Spell feat. And last I checked, Demoralize does not have that exception. Furthermore, once the one-action spell is finished and you proceed to Demoralize, the benefits of the spell are finished within that same action you used to cast the spell, ergo you cannot utilize the range of Message to amplify the potential area of Demoralize.
Lastly, spells give off obvious tells that they are spells and that they are being cast. Unless you take measures to counteract this (such as the Conceal spell feat chain from Wizards), or are able to see the target without them being able to see/hear you or your square, chances are the enemy will notice you.
Is this intended? Hard to say. There's no clear means of denial aside...
Your description and logic on the rules are solid and I would agree. I think the rules fails the player and the idea of role playing on this instance. I think I would allow it in a game I would run. Definitely won’t fly for PFS...too bad.
Thanks for the discussion.