Now that my warpriest is finished, I'm moving on to the next character that needs to be re-done. My half-elf monk. I originally was going to just use a regular half-elf, but I think I want to make this one half-drow. I'm using the alternate racial traits Drow Heritage to count as a drow for effects and Blended View to gain Dark Vision.
For the fighting style, I want to try Two-Weapon Fighting. I'm thinking of using the Waveblade. It's a light weapon, so the penalties will only be -2 with the feat. It's got decent damage, an 18 crit range, and is both piercing and slashing, so I don't need a backup weapon other than a ranged one.
Stat wise, I'm going Dex based, since Two-Weapon Fighting needs 15 dex. The spread I'm looking at is 10 Str, 16 Dex, 15 Con, 12 Int, 16 Wis, and 7 Cha.
monk (...) For the fighting style, I want to try Two-Weapon Fighting.
What? Just, what? You pick a class that's literally based on a class feature that allows a special form of TWF with a single weapon, and you want to ignore that do do the same only in worse with more investment?
Why?
Yeah, monks are based around using Flurry, which is a class specific sort of two weapon fighting that only uses one weapon.
It's ab outright a bad idea to use two weapon fighting on a monk.
If you want to simulate it though, you can pick up any weapon with the monk quality and use it in a flurry.
Oh?
Oh?
Yeah, two weapon fighting and monks are pretty incompatible.
You can do it, but TWF with a monk is going to be worse than just using flurry.
You can flurry with weapons, pick up Ascetic style so you can get your monk weapon damage. You only require one weapon, which saves you money.
I would also strongly suggest using Unchained Monk.
I was going to use Unchained. And ok, there are going to be penalties with Two-Weapon Fighting, but that's the same with every class. And I can still flurry with two weapons, can't I?
If I can't, that's a legitimate reason to not go with Two-Weapon Fighting on a monk. If I can, I don't see a reason why it's so bad to do so.
Flurry and Two Weapon Fighting are two different mechanics that look kind of similar.
You could technically Flurry with two weapons, though it's generally considered sub-par because you have to buy two weapons and enchant them and because you could instead wield a two-handed weapon which will have a bigger damage die and have greater benefit from things like power attack and your strength bonus (UMonk gets 1.5 str to damage on two-handed weapon attacks, regular Monk always gets just full strength during flurry but doesn't get reduced damage for "off-hand" extra attacks).
Also two weapon fighting on an Unchained Monk just doesn't really work (with their class features).
UMonk Flurry of Blows is it's own specific Full Attack Action, meaning you can't make a normal full attack action to use the Two Weapon Fighting feats.
UMonk's Flurry of Blows just gives extra attacks at the characters full base attack bonus.
A regular monk's Flurry of Blows is also it's own Full Attack Action. It basically works like Two Weapon fighting, but doesn't require two weapons and restricts which weapons you can use to make the extra attacks granted. Unchained Monk FOB also restrict what weapons you can use.
If you take the Two Weapon Fighting feats you'll be spending feats to duplicate something the class basically already does, and can't be combined with the class's main feature for either Chained or Unchained Monks.
Can't combine them. Ok then. I did not know that.
Well, if I can't combine the two, I guess I don't need to go dex based. I can switch dex and str around, maybe take a point from str and con to make 12 dex so I'll at least have a little dex based AC from it.
UnFlurry say "[The monk] takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so." PU pg. 14
That's what prevents TWF (and natural attacks) from stacking with Flurry. You could use two weapons, but there is almost never a mechanical reason to do so.
If I can't, that's a legitimate reason to not go with Two-Weapon Fighting on a monk. If I can, I don't see a reason why it's so bad to do so.
I did the calculation, and it wouldn't be worth it. One thing to remember is that Monk already has bonus attacks (from Flurry and Ki Pool), meaning TWF's bonus attack(s) would be a smaller percentile increase in total attacks than normal. Meanwhile, the -2 to attack rolls (and the feat, which in my sample character would've been Weapon Focus, for another net -1) are quite a high price to pay on a class with no attack roll boost.
If you're interested, I can post a short guide on unMonk.
UMonk Flurry of Blows is it's own specific Full Attack Action, meaning you can't make a normal full attack action to use the Two Weapon Fighting feats.
That's not correct - TWF doesn't require a specific action, you can tack it onto any existing full-attack action (which Flurry is). It's the part quoted above that prevents it from working.
TWF doesn't require a specific action, but Flurry of Blows does.
Flurry of Blows is it's own specific kind of full attack action. You can't make a regular gull attack, which can utilize TWF and make a flurry of blows at the same time.
You end up with any ability that's done as a full-attack action preventing TWF because it allows you to do specific things instead of a regular full attack.
Regardless, we may disagree about the exact interpretation of the rules, but we both agree Flurry and Two-Weapon Fighting don't work together.
Ok, for the style strikes, I'm thinking Spin Kick, Defensive Spin, Rabbit Punch, and Shattered Punch.
For the bonus feats, since I have to take them from a list and the list isn't all that long, I'm thinking this order: Dodge, Mobility, Deflect Arrows, Improved Critical, Spring Attack, and SnatchArrows. I don't need any maneuver feats or the improvised weapon feats for this character.
I haven't looked at the ki powers yet. I will do that today.
I would strongly suggest flying kick as a style strike.
Basically, this style strike allows you to move and get your full attack, which is something that most other martial characters struggle with. As long as you have a enemy within a single movement range you can always be full attacking.
Head-butt is also very good because it gives you a chance to stagger an enemy which is very good. It doesn't have a save, though you do have to hit with your attack and then make a combat maneuver roll. However, you can really get your combat maneuvers bonuses pretty high with items so it becomes very likely that you would succeed.
Good point. I'll replace Shattered Punch with Flying Kick and move Rabbit Punch down the line.
I think I'm going to remove Mobility and put in Medusa's Wrath. It lets you make two extra attacks if your opponent is dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, or stunned. The style strike Headbutt Claxon mentioned would be a decent way of making that happen. I'll take out Defensive Spin for it.
I've also got some ki powers I like the look of.
Sudden Speed: Swift action, use 1 point to gain +30 speed for one minute.
Ki Hurricane: Full round action, can move up to double speed. At any point during movement, can attack as if using flurry but must use 1 point per attack. Must be LV10 and have Sudden Speed.
Elemental Fury: Select one energy type. Swift action, use 1 point to have unarmed strikes deal +1d6 energy damage for 1/2 level rounds. Must be LV6.
Elemental Burst: 4 points, can make energy attack in 30-foot cone. 20d6 damage, Ref save for half. Must be LV18 and have Elemental Fury.
One Touch: Standard action, needs a point in pool, can make an unarmed strike target touch AC. +1/2 LV to damage, can spend 1 ki point to double that. Must be LV12.
Wholeness of Body: Standard action, use 2 points to heal 1d8+LV.
Furious Defense: Immediate action, use 1 point to gain +4 dodge to AC until the end of the next turn. Must be LV7.
Qinggong Power: Can select a Qinggong Monk Ki power. Must qualify by level. Can select multiple times, must choose different ki power each time.
These are the qinngong powers I like.
Barkskin: Can cast Barkskin as SLA.
Punishing Kick: Declare use before attacking. If it hits, after damage foe gets Fort save (DC 10+1/2LV+Wis) to avoid getting knocked prone. Can use once a day per 4 levels, but only once a round.
Step Up & Strike: If a foe takes a 5-foot step away from you, you can use 2 points to follow and make an AoO. Must be LV10.
Before anything, you probably should decide on whether you want to use a weapon or not. UnMonk is proficient with every weapon with the monk special property, so there's plenty of choices. Upsided of weapons compared to unarmed are cheap enchantment cost (although unamed can use handwraps instead of the classic Amulet of Mighty Fist, if you are okay with not getting the bonus on some style strikes), the ability to use them two-handed for both 1.5xStr (that was changed from cMonk) and 3:1 Power Attack ration, the ability to have reach (only beneficial during early levels), and the ability to have different damage types. The downsides are that you can't use the bonus attack from spending ki, or style strikes, with weapons (unless you have the Ascetic Form feat, see below for more on that). That doesn't mean armed builds can't use them, though - they can use an unarmed strike (usually the bonus attack from ki pool) to make the style strike and attack with the weapon the other attacks, which is something especially worthwhile for Flying Kick.
Archetypes:
Unlike cMonk, UnMonk is a fully functional class without archetypes, but there are some that are worth looking at:
Brazen Disciple replaces Still Mind and some bonus feats with bluff/feint stuff.
Invested Regent replaces the first bonus feat to grant you additional spell-like abilities in place of feats (bonus or regular), your pool won't be overly large but some of these SLAs are rather nice (e.g. Air Walk at 10th level).
Perfect Scolar replaces Still Mind and the 4th level ki power with a bonus to knowledges and a cute little accuracy boost.
Soul Sheperd replaces Stunning Fist and Evasion with DR and resistances.
Windstep Master replaces the 4th level ki power with the ability to walk on air. Already pretty nice, especially when you don't plan on taking Empty Body early on, it get's to almost must-take levels if your GM allows you to make Flying Kicks while in the air (RAW is very unclear, but they are called "flying" kicks after all!).
Feats: Apart from the archetype, your most important choice is probably ging to be which style chain/VMC you use.
The "normal" paths would be Ascetic Style, Dragon Style, Jabbing Style, Pummeling Style, VMC Barbarian, VMC Magus, or using none of the above. Apart from Dragon Style, they all also work with Weapon Finesse, although VMC Barbarian only if you take unchained Barbarian as a base. There is no single best playstyle for unMonk throughout all levels, if you're interested in damage comparisons, check my unMonk DPR calculator for exact numbers throughout levels 1-16.
The easiest method is Styleless, i.e. not using any style feat chain at all and instead grabbing assorted feats like Power Attack and Possessed Hand - it's not much weaker (at some early levels even stronger) than other styles and allows greater flexibility. Also has the advantage of not needing a swift action to enter a style, which can be relevant in surprise fights.
Ascetic Style (up to Ascetic Form) is something like the default style for armed - it's not exactly necessary, but it is much smoother (and more flavorful) than weapon based styleless, and it's also the highest damage non-VMC style. You basically get all the goodies of both armed and unarmed (including ki pool's DR penetration ability, and even the scaling damage), for the cost of a few feats.
Dragon Style (up to Dragon Ferocity) is something like the default style for unarmed - low investment (only two feats) and comes online very early (3rd level).
Jabbing Style (up to Jabbing Master) depends a bit on the enemies - the higher the AC, the weaker it is. Also needs four feats and only becomes good at 9th, but can do a lot of damage if the enemies aren't particularly high-AC ones. Note that against tougher enemies, you don't want to use Power Attack.
Pummeling Style (up to Pummeling Charge) is a possibility if you want more maneuverability, especially on open battlefields. You'd use your early feats on singular feats like Power Attack, and the build in DR penetration is nice, but your style only really comes online at 9th level. It does, however, free up style strikes even if you have to move.
VMC Barbarian takes even more feats (every other feat, plus you probably want Extra Rage) and lowers your AC, but it comes online early (3rd level), and has some nice additional benefits (well, it's Rage), including a Rage Power at 11th level. Like Styleless it has the advantage of not needing a swift action at the start of combat to get ready.
VMC Magus takes at least as many feats (you definitely want Extra Arcana, as the Magus Arcana you get at 7th level will be Ki Arcana), comes partially online at 3rd level, but becomes crazy at 10th level, when you can basically make every attack against touch AC by (ab)using Accurate Strike and the Ki Leech ki power. Touch attacks sadly can't profit from Power Attack, and the swift action is already used and thus isn't aviable for the bonus ki attack, but the damage is still very high, and you could add Flamboyant Arcana for a defense boost via OP&R.
Jabbing Style and Pummeling Style don't actually require you to be in their stance to work, meaning you don't need a swift action to activate them and you can use them alongside other style feats. You wouldn't get to use the followup feats (those always require an active stance), both these two can be tack onto basically everything.
Bonus Feats: The stand out ones are Dodge, Deflect Arrows, and Medusa's Wrath, plus depending on campaign, build, and allies, Mobility and Combat Expertise. Improved Critical is the only one to directly increase your damage, but it's really weak at that.
Style Strikes: Your first or second style strike will be Flying Kick, period (the only exception would be Pummeling Charge builds, and even than Flying Kick can be useful). It takes a while to be really good, especially when adventuring in open spaces, which is why selecting it at 9th level can be okay, but this is the main reason unMonk is so much better than cMonk.
Defensive Spin boosts AC, Elbow Smash boosts damage (it's usually the best style strike for that).
Foot Stomp prevents escape; including 5-feet-steps.
Ki Powers: There are too many ki powers to list all the good ones, and a lot of it depends on your build. Notable standouts:
Empty Body is aviable at 4th level (yes, really!), and grants amazing versatility, especially outfight, to a class very much lacking just that. Rather ki hungry early on, but flight, invisibility, and intangibility is amazing.
Barkskin (4th) grants some very welcomed AC boost, and is all but mandatory when using an AoMF (which prevents you from using an Amulet of Natural Armor).
Placebo Effect (6th) can surpress most conditions from yourself or allies.
Restoration (8th) removes all ability damage or drain and even negative levels. Self-only, but you get to ignore the material component cost.
Freedom of Movement (8th) is a swift action to use, and it's a supernatural ability, meaning you can have it active exactly when you ened it to.
Insightful Wisdom (8th) doesn't help yourself, but can easily save party members.
Ki Leech (10th) costs no ki to activate, meaning it can be sustained indefinitely, and should remove all ki problems.
Dust Form is amazing for defense, as it makes you immune against non-magical damage, only take half magical damage, and be affected only half the time by non-damage spells.
Diamond Soul (12th) is better than the cMonk's permanent version, as you can activate it after getting buffed by your party.
Action Before Thought (6th) starts weak, but becomes very interesting in combination with Ki Leech.
The Thought Shield line of Qinggong Powers can be lifesavers.
Ki Powers are stronger than feats, so the only Qinggong Power feats worth consideration are those where you both get to ignore prerequisites without hampering functionality, and don't need the feat all the time. The higher Blind-Fight feats are a good example.
Equipment: At early levels, you'll probably want to use one of the three monk reach weapons, Double-chained Kama, Kusarigama, and Kyoketsu shoge. All are weird, but Kusarigama and Kyoketsu shoge also have two different damage types. Since Flying Kick requires you to end adjacent to the enemy, you'll want to use a non-reach weapon later on, Sansetsukon or Seven-branched Sword have the highest base damage (Sansetsukon is slightly superior because 19-20/x2 is better than 20/x3). If you prefer, you can just want to start with one of the, dealing more damage early on for losing the usual benefits of reach (AoOs and higher chance of full attacking). It's possible to flurry with any melee weapon by using the Versatile Design weapon modification and Ascetic Form, but you need to spend a feat or two on proficiency, and mechanically, it's usually not worth it. For unarmed, you're stuck with the mentioned Handwraps, or the twice-as-expansive-to-enchant Amulet of Mighty Fists (which also blocks your neck slot, so you'd probably want the Barkskin ki power). Mathematically, using handwraps is for most levels better even during turns in which you use flying kick, but you have to deal with different attack and damage rolls, and while flying kick is about the movement, Foot Stomp and Leg Sweep mainly care about hitting, making an AoMF better if you chose to use those.
Weapon Finesse based builds can go either unarmed, or use weapons, the best ones are Sanpkhang and Cestus. If not using Ascetic Style, the best weapon is Waveblade.
Something of a 'must have' item is a Wand of Mage Armor, handed to an arcane caster of your choice. You can be generous with the charges, as your caster buddy should have 1st level spell slots to spare by the time you've used them all. Unarmed build should also buy a Scizore, which is a weapon (you don't need to care about proficiency since you never attack with it) that grants a +1 shield bonus to AC when worn. Not an actual shield so it can't be enchanted, but it doesn't hamper your Monk abilities like a shield would.
I just want to note, the big drawback to using weapons with the Unchained Monk is that several of the really good Style Strikes require specific kinds of unarmed strikes to be made.
But otherwise using weapons is generally better.
Derklord's write up is really good.
Rabbit Punch (...) Improved Critical
Don't overvalue critical hits - the average damage increase is actually pretty small; especially for unarmed builds. It looks a bit better for armed builds. Sadly, there is no good 18-20 weapon to use - Waveblade might look like a perfect fit, but since it's not in the monk weapon group, you can't use it with Ascetic Style without spending an extra feat (and you can't use Rabbit Punch with a weapon without Ascetic Form).
Spring Attack (...) One Touch
I'm not sure you realize how full-attack-centric Monk is.
Sudden Speed (...) Elemental Fury (...) Furious Defense
Beware of swift action starvation. If you see combat coming, you can activate Sudden Speed or Elemental Fury up front, if you don't, the swift actions are costly. Remember that you usually need to spend a swift action activating your style feat. Once in fight, every swift action or immediate action prevents one bonus attack from ki pool, which is a high price to pay.
On the topic of Furious Defense, the Mental Barrier line of Qinggong Powers bacially does the same in better.
However, you can really get your combat maneuvers bonuses pretty high with items so it becomes very likely that you would succeed.
How do you get your CMB with an untyped combat maneuver "pretty high"? And of course, Head-Butt only really works against humanoid enemies.
I just want to note, the big drawback to using weapons with the Unchained Monk is that several of the really good Style Strikes require specific kinds of unarmed strikes to be made.
Which is the main reason Ascetic Style is so good. Ascetic Form says "You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike, such as an unchained monk’s style strike ability." Since back then every single style strike required a specific body part, the only way for the feat to do what it says it does is that it overrides that restriction. A case of specific beats general, basically.
However, you can really get your combat maneuvers bonuses pretty high with items so it becomes very likely that you would succeed.How do you get your CMB with an untyped combat maneuver "pretty high"? And of course, Head-Butt only really works against humanoid enemies.
I just want to note, the big drawback to using weapons with the Unchained Monk is that several of the really good Style Strikes require specific kinds of unarmed strikes to be made.Which is the main reason Ascetic Style is so good. Ascetic Form says "You can use the chosen melee weapon with any class ability that can be used with an unarmed strike, such as an unchained monk’s style strike ability." Since back then every single style strike required a specific body part, the only way for the feat to do what it says it does is that it overrides that restriction. A case of specific beats general, basically.
On the combat maneuver I guess it depends a bit on permissive of GM, as I was forgetting that most items that add to your combat maneuver bonus do so for specific maneuvers.
In my experience, some GMs would let you call out "Head-butt strike" as a type of maneuver and use items that allow a choice on that specifically.
If that is the case then the Dueling (from Pathfidner Society Field Guide) enchant (whether on a weapon or Amulet of Mighty Fists) would help considerably. Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuvers and Belt of Superior Maneuvers. Though these all depend on your GM to allow it. For more generic combat maneuvers boots it is a bit harder. I'm sure there are some but I don't know them right off.
And yes, Ascetic style is amazing, if they style strike doesn't require a specific kind of attack. I disagree that Ascetic style overrides the specific body part requirement, and as far as I know there is no clarification.
Assuming that to be the case, Flying Kick does unfortunately require a kick and IMO it's far and away the best style strike. Now that doesn't mean you can't select it, make the required kick with no enhancement to your attack roll, and then continue making the rest of your attacks with you Ascetic weapon.
So, if the OP has a permissive GM they might get away with being able to use any style strikes with their Ascetic weapon which would definitely be the way to go if allowed. And if the GM is permissive they would probably allow "Head-butt strike" to be selected as a maneuver.
If not, then dropping head but might be warranted and focusing on unarmed strikes might be as well.
OP, ask your GM how they feel about those things.
I disagree that Ascetic style overrides the specific body part requirement, and as far as I know there is no clarification.
Then explain to my why the feat explicitly says you can use style strikes with the weapon, when at the time of writing the feat did not allow a single style strike to be used with the weapon.
Seriously, the intend is clear. Yes, it's not explicitly spelled out that the body part limitation is lifted, only that styles trikes now work with the weapon. Just like it isn't spelled out that style feat's stances end when combat end. Don't forget that Ascetic Form is from a Player Companion, which have a strictly limited page count.
In my experience, some GMs would let you call out "Head-butt strike" as a type of maneuver and use items that allow a choice on that specifically.
Would you really want to lower your AoMF bonus or not get a strength belt just so that a style strike that you don't even use most turns (because you're using Flying Kick), that's only once per round, that might not even hit, and that has a -8 penalty against most enemies anyway, has a higher chance of working? Oh, and it also doesn't work against anything larger than you, or more than one size smaller, or anything withotu a head in general.
Looking into the respective official material (especially this blog), I'd say it's actually RAW that you can apply an AoMF's enchantment bonus (and Weapon Focus or Possessed Hand) to Head-Butt's combat maneuver check.
Honestly though, that -8 is the main issue. Everything tough enough to survive a full attack (i.e. doesn't die before you get to use the Medusa's Wrath bonus attacks anyway) has a CMD high enough that the -8 all but ensures that you need a natural 20 to land the maneuver. If we're talking about campaigns where you're mostly fighting humanoid enemies, Head-Butt should work relatively well, but has additional competition in tripping (possibly via Leg Sweep).
Causing staggered is pretty good, so it's a good option. But it does come with costs.
Eventually you get to do multiple style strikes in a round, so that's when it would really come into play potentially. And I doubt you'll be using flying kick every round, since you're unlikely to kill an enemy round and need to move (at least not until higher levels when you'll have multiple style strikes).
Honestly a lot of the style strikes are really specific and not that generally good, IMO.
Except Flying Kick, the rest can be pretty circumstantial.
You have convinced me though that the requirements of Head-butt with regard to size and the penalty for not same creature type make it a bit much of a hassle to use (though if you were running a campaign were you knew the primary enemy were going to be humanoids it would shine).
I think I might opt for Throat Crush instead, just to have an option to shut down most casters (few prepare silence metmagic spells).
Leg Sweep for a free trip is about the other only thing that interests me.
Break is only useful if you're being grappled, not super common, though when it happens you'd be delighted to have this.
Defensive Spin is okay, but it only gives you bonus AC against the target you hit with your style strike. The fact that all his friends can still wail on you with no difference makes it kind of sad.
Elbow Smash...actually this one is pretty good as long as you're not fighting things immune to non-lethal. You should probably be using this when you're not using Flying Kick.
Foot Stomp is circumstantial. It's not that often you want to nail down an enemy in place, but when you do need it this would be clutch.
Hammerblow...get weapon damage dice twice. Generally the majority of your damage at higher levels will come from things other than you weapon dice.
Knockback Kick is another circumstantial strike. Useful for pushing someone off a ledge, maybe.
Rabbit Punch, increasing threat range and critical multiplier of unarmed strikes is okay. Normally unarmed strikes only threaten on a 20 and have a x2 multiplier. If this works with weapons via Ascetic Form it could a different matter.
Shattering Punch breaching DR is good. But only on one attack is meh.
Spin Kick making an enemy flat-footed is good. But there are lots of options that do this. And many enemies don't rely on dex for AC, so they wouldn't be substantially impacted.
Talk to your GM about whether or not they'll let you do style strikes which require a specific body part with Ascetic Form.
If they do, I would recommend Flying Kick, Elbow Smash, Rabbit Punch, and Leg Sweep.
Actually even if they don't the only thing I would change is Rabbit Punch for Throat Crush.
For a weapon (if you use one) the double chicken saber could be good.
It's one handed, so you could use it in two hands for increased Power Attack and Strength damage and it's got a 19-20 crit range.
But any non-light weapon with 19-20 or more crit range would work well.
Light weapons don't get the bonus damage from power attack or using a weapon two-handed.
I will look again at the style strikes and the bonus feats.
Ok, I've looked at the style strikes again. I'm going to keep Headbutt but I'll replace Spin Kick for Leg Sweep. I can take out Improved Critical as a bonus feat and replace it with Improved Trip. I can always take Improved Critical as a regular feat after level 8 or put Keen on my weapon. I'll move Headbutt and Medusa's Wrath down the line to LV 13 and 14 respectively and put Leg Sweep and Improved Trip at LV 9 and 10. I think I want to keep Rabbit Punch as I don't want to take Improved Critical twice if I even take it once and the Amulet of Mighty Fists only goes up to +5.
As for Ki powers, I'm looking at Sudden Speed, Ki Hurricane, Wholeness of Body, Furious Defense, Elemental Fury, Elemental Burst, and Qinggong Power to get Step Up & Strike, Punishing Kick, and the ability to cast Barkskin and Ki Leech as a SLA.
Just a note, if you go with the Ascetic route (using weapons) you wont need an amulet of mighty fists. You could of course still buy one, but you wouldn't use it that much since your main attack would be with weapons.
Improved Critical will work well on weapon, but not very well on unarmed strikes.
You need to determine how your GM will treat ascetic weapons and style strike interactions and then you can plan out the rest of your build.
@Heather 540: Er, did you read my posts? Also, Step Up and Strike doesn't work if you don't have Step Up.
Foot Stomp is circumstantial. It's not that often you want to nail down an enemy in place, but when you do need it this would be clutch.
It's mainly to prevent casters and ranged combatant from 5-foot-stepping away.
I noticed you didn't provide the explanation I asked for...
For a weapon (if you use one) the double chicken saber could be good.
Pro: It's eligible for Ascetic Style, it deals slashing damage (relevant if you expect enemies with DR/bludgeoning), and it's one-handed (which allows using Deflect Arrows and AoOs with the weapon in the same round). Con: When not building towards Ascetic Style, Temple Sword is superior, when not expecting enemies with DR/bludgeoning early-ish on, Nine-section Whip is superior, and when you don't care about Deflect Arrows plus AoOs in the same round, Sansetsukon is definitely superior (you could still make unarmed AoOs, note).
I still think at low levels, a reach weapon has the highest value.
And I doubt you'll be using flying kick every round, since you're unlikely to kill an enemy round and need to move
Not every round, but more often. And if you don't get two enemies into reach, an enemy would need to survive two full attack before head-butt (and thus your investment into improving) it becomes relevant.
Just a note, if you go with the Ascetic route (using weapons) you wont need an amulet of mighty fists. You could of course still buy one, but you wouldn't use it that much since your main attack would be with weapons.
You don't need it, but RAW, the weapon benefits from the AoMF, as it is an effect that augments unarmed strikes. Not unlikely to be veto'd by the GM, though.
Monk class features that now work with the weapon:
● Stunning Fist
● Ki Pool's DR penetration
● The scaling damage (works like Warpriest's Sacred Weapon, i.e. you chose either one)
● Dealing full strength on off hand attacks (almost never relevant).
Other things that now work with the weapon:
● Feats that enhance US, e.g. Possessed Hand
● Feats that have IUS as a prereq, e.g. Hex Strike
● Traits that enhance US, e.g. Bullied
● Spells that enhance US, e.g. Magic Fang
● Items that enhance US, e.g. Amulet of Mighty Fists (multiple enhancement bonuses don't stack, but other magic weapon abilities can be stacked with them)
Monk class features that do not work with Ascetic Style:
● The extra attack from Ki Pool
● Style Strikes
● Ki Blocker, One Touch, and Quivering Palm
● Flurry of Blows (relevant for tri-point double-edged sword, urumi, and the versatile design modification).
All of these are 'unlocked' by Ascetic Form, though.
Thing I'm not sure about:
● The ability to deal nonlethal damage without penalty (on one hand, that basically comes from the general rules for US, but on the other hand, it explicitly mentioned in the Unarmed Strike class feature)
● Weapon Finesse
● Effects that only apply to natural attacks - the "is treated as (...) a natural weapon [blah]" line does make US better, but only indirectly.
Foot Stomp is circumstantial. It's not that often you want to nail down an enemy in place, but when you do need it this would be clutch.It's mainly to prevent casters and ranged combatant from 5-foot-stepping away.
I noticed you didn't provide the explanation I asked for...
I know where it would be useful, but if she has step up, following step, and step up and strike it wouldn't be necessary. Or a reach weapon.
I'm not sure explanation of what you're referring to. Sorry for that.
For a weapon (if you use one) the double chicken saber could be good.Pro: It's eligible for Ascetic Style, it deals slashing damage (relevant if you expect enemies with DR/bludgeoning), and it's one-handed (which allows using Deflect Arrows and AoOs with the weapon in the same round). Con: When not building towards Ascetic Style, Temple Sword is superior, when not expecting enemies with DR/bludgeoning early-ish on, Nine-section Whip is superior, and when you don't care about Deflect Arrows plus AoOs in the same round, Sansetsukon is definitely superior (you could still make unarmed AoOs, note).
I still think at low levels, a reach weapon has the highest value.
I don't disagree. I was just looking for a 1 or 2 handed (not light) weapon with the monk quality with a crit range of more than on a 20. Anything that meets those 3 basic criteria would work well on an Ascetic build. With various weapons have different benefits. Honestly when I was searching I had trouble sorting through the weapons to locate one that met that basic criteria, but I know they exist.
And I doubt you'll be using flying kick every round, since you're unlikely to kill an enemy round and need to moveNot every round, but more often. And if you don't get two enemies into reach, an enemy would need to survive two full attack before head-butt (and thus your investment into improving) it becomes relevant.
Yeah, you'll use Flying Kick a lot. It should definitely be the first strike to be picked up. I don't think we're in disagreement on that. Actually I'm a little confused what your point was here. You'd already previously convinced me that the negatives of Head-Butt make it not great.
Just a note, if you go with the Ascetic route (using weapons) you wont need an amulet of mighty fists. You could of course still buy one, but you wouldn't use it that much since your main attack would be with weapons.You don't need it, but RAW, the weapon benefits from the AoMF, as it is an effect that augments unarmed strikes. Not unlikely to be veto'd by the GM, though.
** spoiler omitted **...
Well, that's an interesting interpretation. I certainly wouldn't rule in favor of the AoMF working to enhance the weapon, but if it does then the OP could certainly have several weapons that she swaps between depending on the situation. Having reach weapons or weapons with other features could certainly be useful.
It's another thing worth asking the GM about.
I'm not sure explanation of what you're referring to. Sorry for that.
"Then explain to my why [Ascetic Form] explicitly says you can use style strikes with the weapon, when at the time of writing the feat did not allow a single style strike to be used with the weapon."
Honestly when I was searching I had trouble sorting through the weapons to locate one that met that basic criteria, but I know they exist.
I have a spreadsheet with all the weapon in it, with entries for all special qualities, handedness, weapon groups, and of course the base stats. I can put it on Google Docs if you're interested, it makes filtering for such things super easy.
Actually I'm a little confused what your point was here.
It was explanation for my origibnal point, which was that something like Gauntlets of Skilled Maneuvers (and especially stuff that lowers your AoMF bonus or replaces your belt or headband) isn't worth it because you don't use Head-Butt enough. That was all! :-)
Well, that's an interesting interpretation. I certainly wouldn't rule in favor of the AoMF working to enhance the weapon, but if it does then the OP could certainly have several weapons that she swaps between depending on the situation. Having reach weapons or weapons with other features could certainly be useful.
It's pretty clearly RAW - AoMF's benefit clearly is an effect that augments unarmed strikes. The author of the feat confirmed it, while also stating that it wasn't intended (which is why I can easily see GM's vetoing it). Also compare the Improved Critical feat, which says "This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon." If magic items didn't count as effects, it would stack with a keen weapon. Magus' spellstrike includes the part "the keen weapon property or similar effects".
To be clear, enhancement bonuses don't stack. However, a weapon with an enhancement bonus and an AoMF with other magical enchantments (e.g. Flaming) would be cheaper than having both on the weapon. It works just like a bow firing magical arrows, only the AoMF doesn't need to be +1. Because of the double cost of AoMF; and the fact that having a higher enhancement bonus is generally better than most other enchantments (both because we can use the accuracy, and because of DR penetration), it's not game breaking, though. In practise, the total bonus will end up one or two higher than normal (until very high levels). And that's with taking up the neck slot, obviously.
I'm not sure explanation of what you're referring to. Sorry for that."Then explain to my why [Ascetic Form] explicitly says you can use style strikes with the weapon, when at the time of writing the feat did not allow a single style strike to be used with the weapon."
I'm ignoring the timeline, because I don't know it. It could also just be a poorly envisioned feat like Prone Shooter. It wouldn't be the first time a feat did nothing.
And ignoring the timeline, I see nothing in the feat that would remove the requirement of performing the maneuver with certain kinds of unarmed strikes.
If it does remove that requirement, it would make a weapon monk strictly superior because there would basically be no drawbacks or abilities restricted from working with it.
Basically in my opinion it would be too good if accurate.
And perhaps that is the case, but either way the best way for the OP to handle it is to ask their GM.
I'm ignoring the timeline, because I don't know it.
Unchained is from April 2015. Ascetic Form is from from November 2015. The first style strikes that don't require a specific body part are from Blood of the Beast, November 2016.
Back when WMH came out, I don't think anyone doubted that you can use style strikes with the weapon - after all, the feat literally says so. Style strikes are the only example given in the feat, making it look like the author deliberately included them (remember, page space is limited). On the book's product page, all the talk on the topic weas that it works like that, and the Author of the feat posted on the same page, making multiply replies, but did not correct anyone on this topic.
I don't see why the printing of a later book should somehow prevent the feat from doing what it was explicitly written to do.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm usually a RAW kind of guy - that is, as long as the RAW works and isn't obviously disfunctional. But I believe that exactly to be the case here - "You can use the chosen melee weapon with (...) an unchained monk’s style strike ability" only really does what it says if you can ignore the body part restriction.
If it does remove that requirement, it would make a weapon monk strictly superior because there would basically be no drawbacks or abilities restricted from working with it.
Apart from the feats required, you mean? Seriously, don't underestimate that.
The only reason Ascetic Style is a bit better than other style feat chains is the cheaper enchantment cost. When using Automatic Bonus Progression (or allowing Handwraps to be used on feet), it's just one style among many.
Ok, so after thinking about it and some good points made on the myth-weavers forum, I'm removing Wholeness of Body, Sudden Speed, Ki Hurricane, Punishing Kick, and SU&S as ki powers. I'm putting Ki Leech at LV10 since that's the lowest level I can take it at. I'm keeping Barkskin at LV4, putting Elemental Fury at LV6, Furious Defense at LV8, and Elemental Burst at LV18. For the new ones I'm considering, I'm thinking Abundant Step since it lets me move far past my speed, Diamond Resilience, and the Qinggong Power to get Scorching Ray. It'll give me a way to attack flying enemies besides a bow, especially since it can hit multiple targets. I might even take Dragon's Breath to get a second elemental attack that can deal a different type of damage than Elemental Fury and Burst.
Time to consider what feats I need. I need Weapon Focus for Ascetic Style. Going up to Ascetic Strike lets me use Unarmed Strike damage for levels lower instead of my weapon's regular damage. Now doing all of that line and the entire Step Up line is pretty feat heavy - taking up a total of 7 feats. Then there are the feats that are basically Stunning Fist but with different effects. 3 of them work well with Medusa's Wrath. Then there's good old Extra Ki and Vicious Stomp.
I already have Leg Sweep and Improved Trip so I don't think I need Punishing Kick. I could take just one of the others since I have Stunning Fist already, giving me a couple of different ways to activate Medusa's Wrath. Which is better, having your opponent dazed or staggered?
Vicious Stomp basically gives me an AoO when an opponent falls prone adjacent to me. Basically Greater Trip without needing Combat Expertise but without the extra +2 to tripping them. I suppose since I'd already gets an AoO when they stand up, I don't really need one for when they fall.
Now, do I really want the entire Step Up line? I think I could get by with just Step Up alone. True, I don't get the extra attack, but thanks to Flying Kick, I'll be able to full attack most of the time anyway, with extras whenever I can stun them. Or trip them if I do take Vicious Stomp.
Heather 540, are you actually asking for suggestions or comments, or do you just use this thread to record your thoughts? Because you don't seem to care for what we're writing, completely ignoring advise and questions alike, and not interacting with our posts at all.