This one's a bit of a ramble.. Would be glad for any insight, but you don't have to read the whole thing hahah
I came upon some opinions that wizards become extremely overpowered compared to more "basic" classes later in the game, and may make the other party members feel obsolete.
Bearing that in mind and wanting more depth to my character than standing in the back line and blasting spells non-stop, I went to the deep end about possible progressions for less power/more flavor&fun.
First idea, becoming a wizard rogue. My dude is very agile (dex +3) and charismatic (+2), he does a lot of talking with NPC's. Does deals and doesn't shy away from social interactions. So I thought it would only be fun to also become a rogue, run around the battlefield and backstab in between spell castings. I found a feat that allows me to use dex instead of str for attack rolls, but I am not sure its enough. Besides, I only have 23 HP.
Second idea, becoming a wizard alchemist. Alchemist greatly closes the save holes that the wizard has. has cool Int based things going on, but doesn't quite solve the problem of "I run out of spells, now I am going to stand around and miss crossbow shots like an idiot". This choice is also cool because I can then make an alchemical golem as my bodyguard, which is cool and flavorfull.
Then there are archetypes for all these classes, my head already hurts with the amount I have checked out.. There were several interisting options for achieving the general endgame I would like this character to reach, Which is a personal pocket dimension with a construct society very similar to Mirrodin if you know Magic the Gathering worlds.
THEN there are prestige classes, and arcane trickster seems to be just plain better than multi-classing a rogue. I still need to change my bonded object to some kind of a blade though? Or maybe change to a familiar and get a simple blade? I am afraid That -1 str and -1 con will hinder my effectiveness. Besides, I am chaotic good, can a chaotic good really backstab?
Damn, a bit of a ramble.. Would be glad for any insight
While I am sure there are builds that get around these issues, as a wizard you don't want to be in melee range of an enemy if you can help it and you especially don't want to be meleeing said enemy. To start with your bonus to hit will make it difficult it hit anything unless you can target it's touch AC. You will not have as many hitpoints as other melee classes and casting in melee will often provoke an attack of opportunity from the enemy meaning you're giving them a free swing that could mess up your spell.
The magus class is designed to be a melee wizard and it addresses all of these issues (some better than others). So, if this is the sort of character you have in mind it's worth considering. If you want to stick to wizard you're at a point where a 1 level dip in fighter will qualify you for the Eldritch Knight prestige class which some players perfer over magus. It is also designed to be a melee wizard and addresses the earlier issues. The two do play a bit differently though which is why some players prefer one over the other.
Multi-classing a wizard with anything for more than a level or two is generally a bad idea. This is because your primary class feature (casting spells) gets delayed every time you take a level in another base class. It doesn't take long before you'll never see 9th level spells. This is part of the issue that mystic theurge runs into. It's all about casting wizard and cleric spells but the normal way of qualifying for the class cripples it. The prestige class requires you to go so deep into both a divine and an arcane class that while you can cast both, you're often a full 2 spell levels behind anyone that chose just one or the other. So, while you're just getting 4th level spells the straight class wizard next to you just got their 6th level spells. That's why players look for tricks to get into the class earlier in order to dampen the impact it has on their overall casting ability.
A wizard/rogue type character can work, but only via the arcane trickster prestige class as it will advance both your sneak attack and your spell casting. You can qualify for the class either by multi-classing wizard with something that gives sneak attack or taking the eldritch scoundrel archetype which lets you be a rogue that can cast spells (using the magus spell progression). Also, just because you're chaotic good it doesn't mean you're chaotic nice. Heck, of all the good alignments CG seems the most likely to stab a bad guy in the back. After all, they're a bad guy they deserved it.
A pocket dimension full of constructs huh? What about adding levels of Investigator? They get a gentle smattering of alchemy, extracts and melee functionality but their main punch is skills. You're likely already the smartest PC in the room when you adventure, imagine getting an extra D6 or with a class ability a free D6 to those skill checks? Also since you get alchemy skills and abilities you'll be able to use those to make some of your constructs later on.
I have a player that went the other way; built an Investigator to level 7 and got tired of never having any Arcane spells/utilities in the party so is now a Wizard 2 and quickly making up the gap.
One thing about arcane casters though... some of their best power isn't in the spells they cast per day but their potential, what they have on their lists. The average CR 5 monster has 55 HP per the Bestiary 1/monster creation rules. This means, if the typical group of PCs has four members, that the avg damage one has to contribute to end a CR 5 fight is 55/4, or 13.75.
The average damage for a wand of scorching ray is 14. This means a level 5 wizard with a wand of scorching ray never has to take that spell for the day, never has to get closer than 30' to the fight and has 50 chances to positively and level-appropriately contribute to ending a fight.
Meanwhile all of their level 1-3 spell slots might be filled with knock, heightened awareness, haste and so on; all those OTHER spells and utilities that folks always need or might need in a pinch but never take as daily spells. You're still ending fights AND you're filling in the cool, interesting niches a spellcaster can without overshadowing the power of the martial PCs.
Fast forward to late game, say level 10, when people say arcane casters loom larger than their martial counterparts. If you're wanting to play a non-blastery, martial-helpful wizard you have tons of spells on your spell lists from levels 1-3 that can boost your fighting ability, deliver force multipliers to the entire martial staff of the party, and so on that you can toss in wands. You can also spend some of your level 10 loot on crafting up scrolls if you didn't trade that bonus feat away. Heck, with the right build you could even have your familiar doubling up using all these consumables to make you as effective as a 3/4 BAB martial as a 10th level wizard.
Meanwhile, just in case you get in a jam, you have a lightning bolt spell that isn't even your highest level spell, studied multiple times for the day. The average damage is 35 on that spell, and at CR 10 monsters you need to be contributing 32.5, so you're covered.
I think this is why folks get mad at arcane casters. Its not that you're doing more damage than anyone at high level (which you can with the right build) but you have so much POTENTIAL that with the right magic items and consumables you can be nearly as effective as anyone in the party, at least a few times/day
Anyway, my suggestion is still Wizard/Investigator.
Multi-classing a full caster is generally a bad idea. The only time it becomes a good idea is if you planned on doing this from the start and made appropriate Ability Score and Trait selections to facilitate this, such as Magical Knack and a Str/Dex/Con score that would support whatever you're building towards. So if you're considering multi-classing on a whim and you haven't picked Magical Knack as a trait and a decent Dex/Con score to support becoming an Arcane Trickster or a Str/Con score to support becoming an Eldritch Knight, I would strongly advise doing this. Your Caster level and spell progression will suffer and you don't want that as a full caster at all. As far as the Investigator dip, that's not the worst idea, but your CL/Spell Progression suffers by 1 level. I think you should probably consider the feat Amateur Investigator as this would not affect your Caster Level or Spell Progression, but it gives you an inspiration pool and 1d6 to knowledge, spellcraft, and linguistics, and this would synergize nicely with your high Int as a Wizard.
As far as giving depth to your wizard, I would strongly recommend not multiclassing to do this, but rather with your daily spell selection. There's nothing stopping you from picking spells each day that give you a massive amount of utility rather than a massive amount of blasting potential.
The most defining aspect of a Wizard is its sheer utility, not necessarily how much damage they can do. There is hardly any situation or problem in the entire game at any level that a Wizard can't outright solve or highly mitigate the difficulty of dealing with, and that's largely due to their high Knowledge skills, an endlessly developing spellbook, and creating a small mountain of scrolls. Make it a point to have a couple scrolls made for every 1st and 2nd level spell, and every useful spell between lvls3-5, and make it a point to replenish these scrolls each day when you use them.
Think of your role as the group's Wizard like "oh the group has X problem? I have an app for that". Be the problem solver.
Thank you guys for such detailed answers!
There was a lot to go over. Arcane trickster and eldritch knight indeed fall off, because I killed my char's STR and CON. But that's fine, really not a big deal.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: A pocket dimension full of constructs huh? What about adding levels of Investigator? They get a gentle smattering of alchemy, extracts and melee functionality but their main punch is skills. You're likely already the smartest PC in the room when you adventure, imagine getting an extra D6 or with a class ability a free D6 to those skill checks? Also since you get alchemy skills and abilities you'll be able to use those to make some of your constructs later on. Thanks for a detailed breakdown! Investigator seems really cool, but I think I'll leave him be for an upcoming campaign. I really liked his mix of abilities. UNless of course there is a way to make up for the missing CON and STR some way (maybe enchanted gear?)
Ryze Kuja wrote: As far as giving depth to your wizard, I would strongly recommend not multiclassing to do this, but rather with your daily spell selection. There's nothing stopping you from picking spells each day that give you a massive amount of utility rather than a massive amount of blasting potential. Although I understand that intuitively, It's hard to explain from the character's point of view. Why he isn't just blasting all the enemies to oblivion. Although I can just limit myself, I thought, why not just impose limitations on my character by multiclassing into something fun like a construct rider alchemist. Make a construct roc and drop bombs doing flyovers hahah. The lagging spell unlocks might really be too much of a cost, if I want pocket dimensions, construct armies, and flying ships.
Overall this gave me a lot of clarity, thanks a lot!!!
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