Official Clarification on Dual Classing Skills Please


Rules Discussion

Dark Archive

When combining the skills from both classes in the event of duplicate skills do you: throw out the duplicate or (as in the case of a duplicate from ancestry, background, class in general rules) replace the skill with another skill?

Example: druid and ranger both get nature as trained

If you toss the extra that would give the character 7+Int total skills, whereas if you switch it they would have 8+Int skills.

Sczarni

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Page 233 of the CRB wrote:
Sometimes you might gain training in a specific skill from multiple sources, such as if your background granted training in Crafting and you took the alchemist class, which also grants training in Crafting. Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice.

Dark Archive

That would be my assumption, but in the GMG for Dual-class most things are thrown out when it discusses duplicates. Skills doesn't mention that so trying to verify if that rule would apply here or if the duplicate is just thrown out and ignored.


If uncertain, I would err on the side of not making an already powerful feature too powerful, if you get what I mean. The section already contains a game balance warning. You may have to evaluate this individually for each class combination.

Dark Archive

I just realized do they get both class ability boosts under Key Ability at first level? That's not mentioned either in the break down of creating the character.

Sczarni

Page 192 of the GG wrote:
Choose and implement your character’s ancestry and background as normal. Then, when you get to the step of choosing a class, select two classes and add everything from each class except Hit Points and starting skills

EDIT: HERE is the entire section for context.

Dark Archive

I have read through that and wouldn't be asking these questions, if it answered my questions. It does not. The write-up in the GMG is horrible. These two questions are not answered or conflict with general rules in the core book:

My initial question about the skills isn't answered because it doesn't reference what happens when duplicate skills are present. Normally as addressed in the core book duplicate skills are replaced, but several times when mentioning other conflicts in the dual-class write up it says to drop the duplicate. Does that apply to skills or do skills follow the core book?

Also it doesn't mention anywhere in the write-up about Key Abilities. This needs to be addressed because if it doesn't become a choose one option and you apply both in some cases you may get double ability bonuses from classes chosen.


I agree that they are not sufficiently covered, but my impression of the intention, based on page 193 is that when both classes get the exact same benefit, you do not double it.

Key Ability boosts at character creation are suspiciously missing from both the list of things you do apply twice and the things you don't. I'm not convinced that you get 2 boosts for any combination. That seems even more absurdly unbalanced than the variant already is.

Quote:

chArActer AdvAncement

A dual-class character gains the class feats and class features for both classes at each level as they advance, with the exception of ability boosts, general feats, skill feats, and skill increases—the character gets each of these benefits only once per level, since both classes would provide the same benefit. (A dual-class rogue/ranger still gets the extra skill feat and skill increase at levels where the other class doesn’t provide them.)If a character gains the same proficiency rank in a statistic more than once, they still use only the highest rank. In the example above, when the cleric gets Alertness at 5th level, they wouldn’t change their Perception rank, since it was already expert due to the ranger’s initial proficiencies.

Sczarni

I was just about to quote that section myself, but it seems like that's concerning "advancement", and not "creation".


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... it's an alternate rules system. Just do what works best for your table. If in doubt, default to the more conservative reading (drop duplicates).


I agree with GMoA. This is an alternate rule that will likely receive no official support going forward. I am ok with a Fighter/Wizard getting a boost to Int and Str as the max for each is still only 18, but the Sorcerer/Bard should not be able to double up on Cha. BUT as a GM I would allow the Cleric/Druid to have an extra +2 to put in any stat as long as the max is no more than 18.


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From my read through I would say drop duplicate (mandatory) skills from the classes. As far as I can see you get both attribute bonuses at first lvl but since the Basic rule book says you can only increase an attribute once per step then you cannot increase the same attribute with the two class core stats. That said there are many classes that allow a choice so just take 2 different attributes. If you decide to dual with two classes that have the same attribute like Cleric/Druid then you loose out....but honestly the dbled spell slots and metric ton of other abilities kinda makes up for it.


I go with Default skills + highest extra skills given. Probally for like of Ranger/Druid you get replace nature with free one. So Ranger/Druid would have Nature, Order skill + 5 free skills(highest skill choice + 1 free from mix of nature).

Also since key ability stat isn't mention then just default to normal of choose which of key ability you boost, So Ruffian/Wizard would have three choices of either Str, Dex or Int to boost.


This how Barbarian/Fighter Leveling look

Initial Proficiencies:
Key Ability: Strength or Dexterity
HP: 12 plus Constitution Modifier
Perception: Expert
Fortitude: Expert
Reflex: Expert
Will: Expert

Skills: Athletics and Acrobatics + additional skills 3 plus your Intelligence modifier.

Simple Weapons: Expert
Martial Weapons: Expert
Advanced Weapons: Trained
Unarmed Attacks: Expert

All Armor: Trained
Unarmored Defense: Trained

Fighter Class DC: Trained
Barbarian Class DC: Trained

Your Level Class Features
1 Ancestry and Background, Initial Proficiencies, Attack of Opportunity, Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Shield Block, Rage and Instinct.
2 Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.
3 Bravery, General Feat, Deny Advantage, Skill Increase.
4 Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.
5 Ability Boosts, Ancestry Feat, Brutality(Melee+Unarmed Attacks get Crit Spec on Rage), Fighter Weapon Mastery, Skill Increase.

6 Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.
7 Battlefield Surveyor, General Feat, Skill Increase, Weapon Specialization(Get Barbarian), Juggernaut(Get Barbarian).
8 Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.
9 Ancestry Feat, Raging Resistance, Combat Flexibility, Skill Increase.
10 Ability Boosts, Fighter Feat, Skill Feat.
11 Armor expertise, Fighter Expertise, General Feat, Skill Increase, Mighty Rage.
12 Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.
13 Ancestry Feat, Skill Increase, Greater Juggernaut, Weapon Legend.
14 Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.
15 Ability Boosts, Evasion, General Feat, Greater weapon Specialization(Barbarian), Indomitable Will, Improved Flexibility, Skill Increase.
16 Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.
17 Ancestry Feat, Quick Rage, Armor Mastery, Skill Increase.
18 Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.
19 General Feat, Skill Increase, Devastator, Versatile Legend.
20 Ability Boosts, Fighter Feat, Barbarian Feat, Skill Feat.

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