I feel like this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find anything after a quick search of the forums:
Does the agile trait on weapons apply to maneuver attack actions?
MAP affects all attack actions, while the agile trait reduces the penalties for attacks. The wording here is vague enough that I'm left unsure. If agile noted that it only applied to Strikes or if it covered all attack actions, I would feel more confident.
Obligatory example: An unarmed character Shoves an opponent at his normal Athletics bonus. He follows up with a second Shove attempt. Would his second Athletics check take a -5 or a -4?
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A normal Unarmed character cannot use their Unarmed Attack for the Shove, as a normal Unarmed Attack does not have the Shove Trait. You would be using the Shove Skill Action, and thus ignore the Agile Trait of your Unarmed Attack.
As for if the Agile Trait of, say, a Light Mace would affect Shove actions made with it, that really depends on who you ask, as it has been debated over and over, but there isn't really a clear resolution by RAW. At least not one that everyone agrees on.
Thanks! That's sort of what I was thinking; it can go either way so there isn't a clear cut choice.
Also, yeah, I picked a bad example. I'm actually currently Tripping as a wolf animal barbarian, so that would probably have better illustrated my question.
I don't see why it's not a clear cut choice. Tripping is an attack and subject to MAP. The trip trait lets you perform Trip actions with the weapon in question. The agile trait reduces your MAP when attacking with the weapon that has the agile trait.
I don't see any real ambiguity. We're essentially asking "Does this ability that reduces the MAP of attacks made with this weapon reduce the MAP of the attacks I make with this weapon?" I can't see a scenario where no is the right answer.
I think Aratorin is in the wrong here.
I don't see why it's not a clear cut choice. Tripping is an attack and subject to MAP. The trip trait lets you perform Trip actions with the weapon in question. The agile trait reduces your MAP when attacking with the weapon that has the agile trait.
I don't see any real ambiguity. We're essentially asking "Does this ability that reduces the MAP of attacks made with this weapon reduce the MAP of the attacks I make with this weapon?" I can't see a scenario where no is the right answer.
I think Aratorin is in the wrong here.
How can I be wrong when I didn't give an opinion? I've seen enough threads arguing about whether or not Agile and Finesse work with such actions to know that it's not worth arguing about.
Shove: You can use this weapon to Shove with the Athletics skill even if you don’t have a free hand. This uses the weapon’s reach (if different from your own) and adds the weapon’s item bonus to attack rolls as an item bonus to the Athletics check. If you critically fail a check to Shove using the weapon, you can drop the weapon to take the effects of a failure instead of a critical failure.
The two sides of the argument are:
1. The ability does what it says, and that's all. You can make a Shove check with the weapon, so you don't need a free hand, you use the weapon's reach, and if the weapon has an item bonus, you get to use that. It's still an Athletics Skill action that uses Strength and gets no extra traits.
2. You're using the Weapon, so you get the benefits of all of its Traits, including Agile and Finesse, even though nothing in the Shove Trait says that.
I'm not picking a side. I've seen both sides argued to death, so until there is an official clarification, it's not worth rehashing.
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How can I be wrong when I didn't give an opinion?
Your opinion is that there's no clear answer, you said as much, right here:
there isn't really a clear resolution by RAW.
I think that opinion is incorrect and don't find your argument to the contrary to be particularly compelling.