in my time making countless characters in 2e's delightful system i've noticed a trend for martial characters i often make. This is maybe because i love action efficiency and making the most out of my round. But every martial i make (sept ranger), that is to say, rogue/barbarian/champion/fighter. All go monk dedication for monks flurry by 10.
its not surprising as to why. 1 action, 2 attacks, combine said attacks for overcoming damage resistances...wich is fairly valuable imo.
whats great is it really only costs you 2-3 feats depending how you do it. 2 if you go unarmed (lizardfolk anything, animal instinct, etc). 3 feats for monastic weaponry for everything else (bo staff for 2 handed reach, temple sword for non agile with shield, kama for agile d6, katar for simple agile d4 (ruffian rogue says thank you), nunchaku for thief rogue (yay finesse). you get the idea. while you might cap out at d8 (and really im biased, my d8's love me) you currently have a weapon for most whatever you want.
heck for GISH characters i like to go monk just so i can attack along with a regular spell being cast.
flurry of blows for everyone!
anyone else feeling this way? i can make other builds, i just dont design them for efficiency.
Why would a ranger not Hunted Shot/Twin Takedown? Why wouldn't the other martials take ranger dedication [only needs 14 dex] for those those feats so you can use weapons without an extra feat.
Why would a ranger not Hunted Shot/Twin Takedown? Why wouldn't the other martials take ranger dedication [only needs 14 dex] for those those feats so you can use weapons without an extra feat.
because hunted shot and twin takedown require hunt prey action on every single new target.
also why would a ranger not take hunted shot/twin takedown? as i said, (sept ranger)
Why would a ranger not Hunted Shot/Twin Takedown? Why wouldn't the other martials take ranger dedication [only needs 14 dex] for those those feats so you can use weapons without an extra feat.
Rangers have to hunt Target first and twin takedown is only vs hunted Target. Monk had neither of those issues.
because hunted shot and twin takedown require hunt prey action on every single new target.
Yes and you can use it 6 levels before flurry with less feats and less stats needed.
Rangers have to hunt Target first and twin takedown is only vs hunted Target. Monk had neither of those issues.
Yes, but they have their own issues like needing a feat for weapons, not being able to use ranged attacks and the like and 10th level to take. If the only thing you care about is melee action economy from 10th on that's fine but I was looking at the whole thing. I actually think about ranger multiclass with my monks if I plan to use Shuriken so I can 'flurry' with them with Hunted Shot.
Basically, I can't see myself going for monk's flurry unless I already had some unarmed ability to start with and was making a character that was 10th+ already.
like i said, i have an interest in efficiency, and i specifically mentioned melee only (not ranged) and that rangers didnt get as much benefit since they can eventually hunt prey multiple targets at once.
if you want to do ranged combat? sure, ranger dedication.
melee? id go monk, even with monastic weaponry, 3 feats isnt a gigantic investment (isnt nothing, but it isnt end all either). 2 feats if you go half elf (9th level multi talented)
yeah its not available until level 10, but tbh, id rather wait for it then have to spend an action every time i target a new enemy for twin takedown.
but thats a me thing
but thats a me thing
That's totally cool, but that's not my thing so I'm not sure what I can add. Maybe someone else has some ideas.
but thats a me thingThat's totally cool, but that's not my thing so I'm not sure what I can add. Maybe someone else has some ideas.
like i know you get to *play with your toy* sooner with ranger dedication, but its substantially more clumsy toy to play with considering the required setup per new enemy. and as i said, i love efficiency.
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Hunted Shot is better because bows > Monk ranged.
Twin Takedown is worse because as well as Hunt Prey you need two weapons, so you hit the same d8 cap for damage per Strike. But it's not enough worse to take several feats (and cut yourself off from another MCD). A Ranger can also tie Hunt Prey to other feats to get more out of that action, but an MCD Ranger might not to want those at 2x the level.
Note that obviously the following reasons don't apply to all builds.
I've also made MCD Monks w/ all the martial classes, so I understand the draw (especially to that save bonus). But since you've asked:
Reasons a generic martial may not want to take Monk:
-It's 3 feats (!) and cuts off other MCD options, like gaining use of magic items/Cantrips, Sneak Attack, or some signature feat from another martial class.
-Some decent feats are based off the weapon's die type like Brutal Critical or Power Attack, so going to a d8 doesn't jibe with those builds.
-Weapons aren't just about die type, i.e. Critical Specialization or wanting traits unavailable among Monk weapons.
Reasons a Barbarian might not want to take Monk:
Actually, an Animal Instinct Barbarian probably should, since they only "lose" one feat for entry, one for the good Flurry, and Stunning Fist for even more goodness, the latter two with attacks they're already built around.
Barbs have good movement so can often get that 2nd Strike anyway (and likely have a poor 3rd Strike). So if most rounds they can get two swings (w/ d12s perhaps), the bump to sometimes getting more attacks, but they're always d8, just may not be worth 3(!) feats.
Reasons why a Champion might not want to take Monk:
Heavy Armor: This allows them to have 10 Dex safely, freeing up 4 points for elsewhere.
All the general stuff seems to apply extra to Champions.
Reasons a Fighter might not want to take Monk:
Press feats: These are some excellent feats, yet work best after a single Strike (or often a Strike w/ carrier effect), not two from a Flurry.
Double Slice: Two attacks w/o MAP. Yes, it's an extra action and requires two weapons (and also works poorly w/ Press feats), but it's two attacks w/o MAP! (essentially a +4 w/ an agile weapon or +3 w/ a non-agile weapon). Also, not a Flourish.
Opportunity Attacks: The Bo Staff is competitive w/ Reach weapons, but if I'm building around Improved Knockdown (et al) I likely want a hefty d12 weapon for that bonus attack when they stand up.
Heavy Armor
Flourish Attacks: Can't combine with Flurry, also a Flourish. For example.
Reasons a Rogue might not want to take Monk:
The general reasons, but also Flurry aligns poorly. It's at 10th when Rogues get their great debilitation feats, and many of the later feats are also game-changing, depending on what kind of game you're playing of course.
That said, since Rogues can also benefit from Monk Resilience and use low die weapons anyway, they may have the most reason to MCD Monk, as long as they remember Dex-to-damage doesn't work w/ unarmed strikes.
Being able to get Fort to Master is a big win IMO for a melee Rogue subject to grabs & poison vs. a weak save. Also, move/Flurry/move gives a Rogue some relief from standing toe-to-toe.
Thank you for the mental exercise. :)
ETA: The 14 Strength is a decent hurdle for Thief Rogues, especially Gnomes & Halflings.
like i know you get to *play with your toy* sooner with ranger dedication, but its substantially more clumsy toy to play with considering the required setup per new enemy.
I find that you can often hunt Target before combat starts [you just have to see, hear or track them] and you don't switch target too often from my experience so I see it's efficiency being good [and it's better efficiency from 4th to 9th when the multiclass monk doesn't have flurry yet]. Of course, if your DM likes hordes of lesser foes vs lesser number of higher foes, this shifts efficiency.
like i know you get to *play with your toy* sooner with ranger dedication, but its substantially more clumsy toy to play with considering the required setup per new enemy.I find that you can often hunt Target before combat starts [you just have to see, hear or track them] and you don't switch target too often from my experience so I see it's efficiency being good [and it's better efficiency from 4th to 9th when the multiclass monk doesn't have flurry yet]. Of course, if your DM likes hordes of lesser foes vs lesser number of higher foes, this shifts efficiency.
Yes we have been routinely outnumbered.
Hunted Shot is better because bows > Monk ranged.
Already said if you want to go ranged to ranger. Monk's definitely got a Melee build.
Twin Takedown is worse because as well as Hunt Prey you need two weapons, so you hit the same d8 cap for damage per Strike. But it's not enough worse to take several feats (and cut yourself off from another MCD). A Ranger can also tie Hunt Prey to other feats to get more out of that action, but an MCD Ranger might not to want those at 2x the level.
Yeah it's either really high level or you just don't get it.
Reasons a generic martial may not want to take Monk:
-It's 3 feats (!) and cuts off other MCD options, like gaining use of magic items/Cantrips, Sneak Attack, or some signature feat from another martial class.
3 feats is notable though you can get it first to 2 class feats via elf or half elf (admittedly that shifts the entire thing solidly into mid game and is better for an unarmed build)
-Some decent feats are based off the weapon's die type like Brutal Critical or Power Attack, so going to a d8 doesn't jibe with those builds.
Brutal critical still works with a d8. Just not as well. But IMO at that level your less focused on crits and more focuses on getting through resistances and powerful monster defenses. I'd still take brutal at 18 and not feel bad about it. I'd refrain from taking it and still not feel bad about it.
-Weapons aren't just about die type, i.e. Critical Specialization or wanting traits unavailable among Monk weapons.
. Entirely fair! Good point
Reasons a Barbarian might not want to take Monk:
Actually, an Animal Instinct Barbarian probably should, since they only "lose" one feat for entry, one for the good Flurry, and Stunning Fist for even more goodness, the latter two with attacks they're already built around.
Barbs have good movement so can often get that 2nd Strike anyway (and likely have a poor 3rd Strike). So if most rounds they can get two swings (w/ d12s perhaps), the bump to sometimes getting more attacks, but they're always d8, just may not be worth 3(!) feats.
Depends. On your goal. When I've built them looking at all the options at hand it wasn't super hard to make cuts but I imagine that's a personal thing
Reasons why a Champion might not want to take Monk:
Heavy Armor: This allows them to have 10 Dex safely, freeing up 4 points for elsewhere.
All the general stuff seems to apply extra to Champions.
Maybe I undervalue champion feats but other than the shield feats I'm woefully disinterested in there majority of them. They are either very niche or don't run in a direction I'm looking for. So again, probably just a me thing.
The quote is apparently big enough that it cut off the rest.
But it all kinda boils down to similar things. Mostly me not valuing some of the feats they get very highly. Press traits are great but I'd only ever take one and I'd rather take the multiple aoo and shield block reactions along with agile Grace. Everything before that I really don't care about.
If I'm gonna *full attack* someone with a fighter at high level. I'd get 5 attacks all together with haste. Go lizardfolk to save on having to take monastic weaponry and take razorclaw. You now have on demand choice between each physical damage types. (I like this build A fair bit)
I thank you for the reply. I'm sure many players value some of the things you listed more than I.
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The Flourish trait makes it a little less attractive for some martial builds, especially when it costs 3 feats. For an unarmed build it would be pretty tempting.
I can see why you would like Monk dedication in some builds, Flurry of Blows only cost 2 feats, the dedication and the feat to get Flurry of Blows itself.
It could be argued that if you want to pick another dedication you need the 3rd bit if you are human or have the adopted ancestry for Multitalented then that is not really a problem anymore.
I personally like for non-thief rogues, the powerful fist from the dedication makes your unarmed attacks basically Shortswords.