I love bards, and I love archivists. I finally have a chance to play one again, this time in a group I know will see the campaign through. Great fun!
Unfortunately, I'm in a funny little pickle on a few fronts.
The campaign is Mummy's Mask. Our first session starts in... probably around a month, as soon as we finish Wrath of the Righteous. The party is as follows:
Halfling Bard (Archivist) - Me
Magus (Jistkan Artificer)
Unchained Monk / Living Monolith
Cleric of Nethys
The magus will not be using shocking grasp or rime spell, and says he'll have solid AC eventually but will need some help at the start. I got first pick on character class (due to volunteering for last pick in the current campaign), so the others chose after me, approximately in the order on the list.
With that setup in mind, let's talk about my character and my problems.
MY CHARACTER: Professor Gaddurn Idgit
Professor Gaddurn is a Halfling Archivist (Bard), the stereotypical bumbling scholar type. His stats are as follows:
9/16/12/14/10/17 - 20 pt. buy
Traits are going to include Helpful (Halfling), boosting my Aid Another to a +4. I will probably try and grab something with an Initiative boost as well.
The above stats can be modified if they're suboptimal, but I MUST have good Intelligence and Charisma. I don't intend to do much walloping in melee, but I have ways to help that aren't whackity-whack.
Starting gear will include Leather Lamellar and a Heavy Wooden Shield. With size included, that's 18 AC. If I spend my FCB on HP, I will have 10 HP at level 1. 10 HP and 18 AC at least means I can facetank problems a little with the Total Defense and Fighting Defensively actions if necessary.
I'm stuck at starting feat, and I'll get to why later. Essentially, though, this is his intended combat strategy:
Step 1: Identify monsters. Free action. Now I can use my song!
Step 2: Start playing a song. AC of group bumps up by 1, putting me at 19. Move into melee and facetank.
Step 3: Five foot free step; hopefully allies are in place to protect him now. Cast magic. Otherwise, standard action Aid Another while fighting defensively, using the Helpful trait to give an ally a +4 attack bonus or AC bonus if I roll high while also boosting my own AC to 21.
Step 3.5: Alternatively, I could just Total Defense and scream for help. 23 AC isn't terrible for that!
And that's pretty much it for now. However, later on I will have the Blundering Defense feat as well as the Combat Reflexes + Bodyguard feats. It'll take a while.
Essentially, my late game tactics are use my song and spells to buff, then buff people *even more* by standing next to them and swinging vainly at the enemy. The bumbling professor makes a fool of himself, causing the enemies to gape in confusion as the REAL adventurers do the work. And any time they attack his friends he sort of just... stumbles in the way. Classy, right?
However, now we get to the actual problems I shall encounter...
DIFFICULTIES
Problem 1. Feats. I can only take 1 at level 1, and boy do I wish I could have more.
I want Lingering Performance because what bard DOESN'T want lingering performance? However, I also REALLY want Deific Obedience. I could get +4 to all my knowledges by worshiping Nethys, and who doesn't want a training montage from the silly old professor every morning? And I do need to succeed on those knowledge rolls because...
Problem 2. My Naturalist song as an Archivist doesn't work unless I succeed on knowledge checks. This won't be as big a problem later on, but boy do I need that stuff now. My party needs AC bonuses! And that's also a problem, funnily enough, because...
Problem 3. The DM has ruled (and fairly) that I can only identify one monster at a time in a given round of combat. He has agreed to let me spend a standard action to identify monsters in combat, but then I can't use that round buffing with my song.
So, these aren't insurmountable problems. Being able to only identify one type of monster per round of combat will be a real pain, of course, as it puts a serious cramp on the power of Naturalist. I like the bonuses, of course. Attack/AC/Saves is good!
Thankfully, once I'm past the initial few levels I should be solid on all knowledges with the right items on my character. I'll also be boosting my party's abilities further with the Shared Training spell, teamwork feats, and a Helm of Command for an extra feat, not to mention the plethora of other buffs available to my character. And so many things can boost knowledge checks once you get to spells, like good ol' Heroism...
So, how can I minimize my problems? What are my best solutions? I'm happy to make adjustments here.
EDIT: I should add that I intend to invest in helping the group perform stealth operations. The best way to get more knowledge checks is with more information, so maybe by swinging ahead by like 30 feet I can detect bad guys and identify them before the fight starts. I have decent DEX and am Small, so Stealth is gonna be easier for me than most.
EDIT 2: I'm the party's trapsmith, by the way.
Irori's the god whose deific obedience boosts knowledge checks. Nethys helps with concentration checks. Dunno if that makes a difference to you.
There are of course other means of getting bonuses to knowledge checks.
Whoops, it does. I meant Irori, but wrote Nethys. Apologies! My mistake.
But yeah, those are some cheap and handy items... With Full Pouch at level 4 I should be able to make as much Focus Chew as I like during downtime, which will help considerably. The puzzlebox isn't a bad idea either, and is quite affordable.
The staff... I gotta find out who the cleric is going to worship. Maybe that's a better idea than me nabbing Deific Obedience.
Shorticus wrote: Problem 3. The DM has ruled (and fairly) that I can only identify one monster at a time in a given round of combat. He has agreed to let me spend a standard action to identify monsters in combat, but then I can't use that round buffing with my song. Just gonna put it out there, this isn't how identifying monsters works. Both in the rules and in real life ... "Oh look there's some kind of doggie and a huge grey thing with tusks and a long nose. The doggie is <rolls> a Wolf, I guess I'll just wait 6 seconds befire remembering what the big grey thing is." Knowledge checks are supposed to represent what you already know, so they shouldn't take time to perform.
I don't want to start a fight between you and your GM (and if you're ok with it then it's fine), but that rule is totally nerfing your character - and only your character. Again if you're ok with it then don't stress, but I'd definitely try to get that rule changed (even letting you identify them as a swift/move/standard action opens up a lot more options for you.
MrCharisma wrote: Shorticus wrote: Problem 3. The DM has ruled (and fairly) that I can only identify one monster at a time in a given round of combat. He has agreed to let me spend a standard action to identify monsters in combat, but then I can't use that round buffing with my song. Just gonna put it out there, this isn't how identifying monsters works. Both in the rules and in real life ... "Oh look there's some kind of doggie and a huge grey thing with tusks and a long nose. The doggie is <rolls> a Wolf, I guess I'll just wait 6 seconds befire remembering what the big grey thing is." Knowledge checks are supposed to represent what you already know, so they shouldn't take time to perform.
I don't want to start a fight between you and your GM (and if you're ok with it then it's fine), but that rule is totally nerfing your character - and only your character. Again if you're ok with it then don't stress, but I'd definitely try to get that rule changed (even letting you identify them as a swift/move/standard action opens up a lot more options for you. Yeah, he and I talked about the rule at some length already. While I disagree with the ruling, I don't think it's worth causing any further fuss over. It DOES hurt my character, but there IS some sense to the logic - six seconds isn't a lot of time to remember everything from all those books you've read on all those monsters in the heat of battle. Battle is distracting, man!
With that said, this is why I'm looking at ways to scout better, too. If I can scout / divine useful information about the enemy before we start, or if a party member can do that for me... well, that helps!
EDIT: To clarify, I can identify one (1) monster per round as a Free Action. However, I can identify a second monster as a Standard Action in a given round.
EDIT: As an aside, I plan on maxing out my UMD and getting wands of spells like Insect Scouts so I can scout places out before we enter them. It's Mummy's Mask, so I figure this shouldn't be a problem to do. Spectral Scout may see similar use. And... invisibility on myself with my +13 Stealth at level 1 (which will only be higher later) will probably help, too.
Yeah no worries. Definitely not worth splitting the group over.
I played in a game where it was a standard action to identify enemies, and it's still a great use of your standard action, so it's not the end of the world.
I don't know that I have all that much to add. Get yourself some GLOVES OF ARCANE STRIKING and maybe BENEVOLENT ARMOUR (I'd say get to +2 first) to help with Bodyguard. Also be aware that you're going to make yourself a target if you're keeping everyone else alive, so maybe boosting your CON a little is a good idea.
Yeah, boosting my CON is 100% on the table. Maybe I could drop STR and CHA by 1 each, netting me +2 CON?
One more quick post. I could take Maestro of the Society at level 1 and save Lingering Performance for later on, when I have multiple good performances I want to use in combat. It's a bandaid, but it would give me 10 Bardic Performance Rounds a day at level 1.
If I did so, Deific Obedience (Irori) would guarantee I succeed most knowledge checks.
If I get desperate featwise, I can always enchant a Spiked Gauntlet with the Training enchantment - or perhaps enchant my shield as a weapon for the same purpose. That could be an easy way to get Lingering Performance for some cash.
Training gives combat feats. Lingering us a general feat.
Cavall wrote: Training gives combat feats. Lingering us a general feat. Good catch; I'll bear that in mind. Should still be able to make the build function!
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I shifted my stats to 8/16/14/14/10/16. I took Maestro of the Society to start with 10 Bardic Performance Rounds, which I'm hoping will last long enough at level 1. I took Deific Obedience (Irori) as my first level feat which will give me an edge in skill checks. My lowest knowledge at level 1 is a +7, others are +11, and I have a +9 and a +12. I should be succeeding those bad boys, and I can boost that higher later on with Focus Chew.
HP 10, AC 18 at level 1. Can boost AC higher with defensive actions and song.
My plan is to get Blundering Defense by level 5, then to take Lingering Performance at 7 (around when I start getting more combat-relevant songs). I'll get Combat Reflexes at 9, then I can either take Bodyguard at level 11 or slap it on a Training weapon (like a spiked gauntlet or my shield). If I take it at 11, I can instead slap Combat Expertise on said training weapon, boosting my Blundering Defense. It's teamwork feats after that. Maybe I can get Combat Patrol toward the end of the campaign?
Item-wise: Commander's Helm (extra teamwork feat - Harrying Partners) is a necessity, and I will nab it as soon as I get Bodyguard online so I can provide AC buffs to the team for the entire round, not just that turn. That's 16k, or 10k if I get a cheaper teamwork feat instead. I will use Shared Training to provide that goodness.
I also plan to get Arcane Strike eventually, yes, and to use it in tandem with the Gloves of Arcane Striking. Benevolent Armor is a must.
Does all this sound like a solid build?
I would reccomend actually taking combat expertise without training. Training doesnt allow the feat given to be used as a prerequisite.
Combat expertise has a lot of great feats attached to it. Take it and you access them.
Use training to access feats that are the ends of feat trees. You'll get more out of it then.
I would also reccomend Threatening Defender as a trait. You'll get a lot out of it.
Quote: Combat expertise has a lot of great feats attached to it. Take it and you access them. It's not a bad call. It's just a matter of if I'm actually pursuing any feats that require it.
As I see it, my feats are going to be... mostly eaten up already.
1 - Deific Obedience (Irori)
3 - Cautious Fighter
5 - Blundering Defense
7 - Lingering Performance (?)
9 - Combat Reflexes
11 - Bodyguard (or this could be a training item)
13 - Teamwork Feat
15 - Probably another Teamwork feat; there's some good ones
And if I want Combat Patrol that's 17 and 19. Or I could get Combat Expertise + 1 more feat. I'm pretty full up.
Combat Expertise is useful, but may work well as a Training thing.
Shorticus wrote: Professor Gaddurn is a Halfling Archivist (Bard), the stereotypical bumbling scholar type. His stats are as follows:
9/16/12/14/10/17 - 20 pt. buy
I would only "bumble" (be clumsy) for show (i.e., when Bluffing). You kept your dexterity up, so all's good there. (Point-buy seems off a bit for a halfling <fixed below> and there's no need to spend a point raising the racially-dumped strength to a 9 in a small race whose gear is mostly half- or even quarter-weight, and that's before a haversack.) Quote: Traits are going to include Helpful (Halfling), boosting my Aid Another to a +4. I will probably try and grab something with an Initiative boost as well. Reactionary for INIT is good, but Aid Another tactics I've never been a fan of (you're a caster and skills hound; you should almost always have something better to do in combat than putting yourself in the threatened zone of a multiattack monster in order to AA a tougher ally (because then the thing will 5' around the tank and rip you to pieces instead of flailing impotently at your thicker-skinned ally's better AC -- you are the squishiest member of the party; keep your head down). And watch out for gibbering mouthers (just generic advice from one halfling to another; I don't know if they're in this adventure-path).
(Ah, Mirror Image, so much fun you are, evilly tempting bards to their melee doom, making 'em think they're safe until suddenly they're not and eat seventy right in the face.) Quote: Yeah, boosting my CON is 100% on the table. Maybe I could drop STR and CHA by 1 each, netting me +2 CON? Drop Str? Sure. Drop Cha? Nooooo. Better idea: Keep Cha and Dex both up (so you're a great bard who gets hit less), and stay safe so your hitpoints aren't thrashed. Bumping Con from 12 to 14 nets you a miserable 1hp per level, whereas not getting hit will usually save you ten to twenty times that per enemy whiff. You can also UMD wands, not to mention just cast Cure spells without checks. The main thing you can't do easily (at least not without roasting all of your feats) is dish out pure martial levels of damage in melee. Well, are you a bookworm or a barbarian? Choose one to be great at. Your party already has two high-damage melees from the look of things, and I'm guessing the cleric will be no slouch either. Quote: The above stats can be modified if they're suboptimal, but I MUST have good Intelligence and Charisma. I don't intend to do much walloping in melee, but I have ways to help that aren't whackity-whack. I'll bite: Why do you need high INT? You're not a wizard, and you also have Versatile Training (even if you sack the first one for a Deific Obedience...more on that later), and Archivists pick up Lore Master at 2nd for a free take-20 on a Kn once/day to cashier into a Naturalist performance. So, you don't really need that eighth skillpoint/level with an INT of 14 costing three more build points than a 12. As others have noted, boosting bonuses to Knowledge skills is quite easy, and you can do it even while dumb as a box of rocks.
~ ~ ~
STR- 8
DEX+ 17 (raise 8th)
CON: 12
INT: 12 (halfling, 15,15,12,12,12,10 20pt array)
WIS: 12
CHA+ 17 (raise 4th, 12th+Tome)
* halfling racial alternative traits: Danger Detection, Fleet of Foot, Shadowhunter, Small Quarter Ally
* character traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary
01 bard1 Flagbearer
...at 1st-level, merely by holding a flag and being a small quarter ally, you're sharing a +1 to attack and damage, a +1 morale bonus to all saves, +2 versus fear saves (and +3 to yourself), all without taking an action! (When you Inspire Courage, add 1 to all those numbers except the morale bonuses.) Tip: locked-gauntlet, flag, spring-loaded wrist-sheath, and a buckler all on the same arm leaves the other one free for somatics or Tanglefoot-chucking.
I'm also going to recommend being a core bard rather than an Archivist at 1st-level. You might not have been aware of it, but the Archivist's Inspire-forfeiting Naturalist bonuses only apply to a single enemy ("...a creature..."), whereas regular Inspire works versus the entire Zerg rush, including those that haven't charged out of the weeds yet. The Archivist can't use any of the game's umpitty Inspire-boosting wondrous items, feats, spells, etc. Having insight instead of morale bonuses is tempting, but it's nowhere near worth it, and especially not at low levels where you'll still be failing skill checks half the time. Archivist also forfeits Versatile Performance, and not just one of them, all of them, costing you a slot useful for tucking in the Deific Obedience that you wanted, and robbing you of free skill-ranks down the road as well (this being why you felt pressed toward higher INT). --Have you ever had that feeling that most archetypes are self-nerf traps? (Browsing archetype further... Geez, it even sacks Suggestion too ...ouch.)
02 bard2 [trade a Versatile Performance for Deific Obedience:Irori]
03 bard3 Lingering Song-
04 bard4
05 bard5 FEATg (maybe Weapon Finesse now...?)
...finesse would be the sole concession to weapon/combat feats, and taken to help out with the whips and an Agile rapier. Otherwise, don't take it. Feats should go toward making you an awesome, higher-tier magical face who eventually has everybody and everything eating out of his hand.
If you want to look fancy in the mid-levels, pick up a +1/Training(Weapon Finesse)/Agile rapier. --You won't be a real swashbuckler with Precise Strike, but you can sure fake looking like one when you poke things for ten damage, because, for some reason, you wanted to do that, and have well-heeled noble levels of money to squander on mere steel.
Quote: I'll bite: Why do you need high INT? Well, because I'm going to be playing Archivist. It suits the "bumbling professor" vibe really well, and fits perfectly into Mummy's Mask. I won't be changing that. Anyway, that means I want more INT so I can do skillmonkeying better: face skills, knowledge skills, trap skills.
Quote: because then the thing will 5' around the tank and rip you to pieces instead of flailing impotently at your thicker-skinned ally's better AC -- you are the squishiest member of the party; keep your head down Thus far, my bard is actually pretty sturdy. CON 14 and a little investment into defense has made him pretty sturdy at level 1, and his sturdiness only goes up as levels rise.
He's not a battle bard. He's not a pure caster bard (because if you're playing a pure caster, why be a bard?). He's a Bodyguard / Blundering Defense Bard whose song (which boosts attack/AC) makes him operate just fine in melee.
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I can see that you're pushing me to play a more traditional, capable battle bard. I understand why. But let me tell you why I'm explicitly not doing that:
My last two characters with this group - through 1/2 of Kingmaker and the entirety of Wrath of the Righteous - have been DPR machines. I have frequently one-round killed bosses, making the GM ramp up the power of future bosses or making my nerf my character (and in some cases BOTH). I have consistently and repeatedly stolen the spotlight by murderhoboing my way through rooms. And the truth is, I don't WANT to play another DPR machine, or anything resembling one. I want to play a hard support character, and I want to play something different.
I'm not a Pathfinder newbie, and this isn't my first bard. I have a specific concept in mind - a concept I have laid out with class, archetype, and premise. I'm asking for help making THAT concept stronger, and I will not be switching to a different one.
So, sorry, Slim Jim. I appreciate your advice, but it's not the advice I'm asking for. I know how to build a melee beast bard with Flagbearer, Discordant Voice, three songs ongoing at once, Lingering Performance, and all that jazz. I've played that character and she was fun. But today I'm making a bumbling professor Archivist, so please focus on that.
EDIT: I do want to emphasize that I really DO appreciate the advice. It's good advice! It's just advice for a different character concept, and I'm sold on my current one. It's time for a change of pace, you know?
Also, on Naturalist... My GM will let me use it vs. multiple enemies at once, but only if I'd already ID'd them. I also only get one monster identification a round as a free action, hence why I needed to bolster my Knowledge power (to make sure my rolls count).
EDIT 2: Also, one specific reason I'm avoiding Flagbearer is IDK if my GM will allow retraining, and without the Banner of Ancient Kings (which requires two hands), it's... well, it tapers off in utility later. I might as well use Heroism on people when I get access to it.
Quote: I have consistently and repeatedly stolen the spotlight by murderhoboing my way through rooms. And the truth is, I don't WANT to play another DPR machine I'm not seeing how my build's carrying a banner while staying out of melee isn't catering perfectly to your wishes to not play a DPR machine. My suggestion gave you 0 DPR, doubled-up party-buffing at 1st, and Deific Obedience at 2nd without spending a feat. It let's you be the bookworm you want to be while still meaningfully contributing in a manner that will never outshine anyone else's melee character.
Except you also advised I drop Archivist and go with Core bard, and that's not going to be doable for me.
So far as flagbearer goes, I'm already building around Blundering Defense and Bodyguard, and my GM hasn't promised retraining yet. If I'm going to be using Blundering Defense, I am going to be very much near or in the melee, and the bonus AC from having a shield (since I won't actually damage things) will be very nice.
And finally, as I said: I've played a Flagbearer bard before, though that was one that specialized in melee combat, yes. And the Banner of Ancient Kings - the main attraction for Flagbearer - requires two hands.
Again, I'm looking for advice that will make the Blundering Defense / Bodyguard Archivist setup better, not advice that will steer me away from doing what I want to do.
EDIT: As an aside, I may take Flagbearer later on maybe, but the more I think on it the more I realize it would only be to use with the BoAK and I would need to downgrade to using a magical buckler and have armor spikes to use for aid another actions (since using Aid Another with the spear would make me lose my shield AC without further feat investiture).
<shrug>
Bard advice given.
"Another satisfied customer!"
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The Crane Style and Misdirection Tactics feat lines can boost defensive fighting. Also Osyluth Guile helps with high Cha. Also, the Aldori Caution and Call for Help traits both seem like perfect fits.
For aid another you might want to consider; Got Your Back, Harrying Partners, In Harm's Way, Virtuous Creed (Protection), Ring of Tactical Precision, Wayfinder of Cooperation, Bastion Banner (Abadar), Effortless Aid, Following in the Footsteps, Helpful (Halfling), and World Weary.
CBDunkerson wrote: The Crane Style and Misdirection Tactics feat lines can boost defensive fighting. Also Osyluth Guile helps with high Cha. Also, the Aldori Caution and Call for Help traits both seem like perfect fits.
For aid another you might want to consider; Got Your Back, Harrying Partners, In Harm's Way, Virtuous Creed (Protection), Ring of Tactical Precision, Wayfinder of Cooperation, Bastion Banner (Abadar), Effortless Aid, Following in the Footsteps, Helpful (Halfling), and World Weary.
Aldori Caution I didn't know about. That's... really good, actually. I may need to take that indeed.
Several other useful things you mentioned I didn't know about, either. Harrying Partners was definitely going to see use, but the Wayfinder, the Banner, Osyluth Guile, Virtuous Creed... there's a lot here I wasn't familiar with. This will help considerably with my strategy.
Thank you very much!
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