Hi all,
Yesterday night our DM threw at us a couple of creatures with a reaction that allowed them to add +2 to their AC. Initiative was rolled and the order was: rogue, fighter, cleric, creatures and wizard (me).
The DM used reactions of both creatures against fighter and cleric attacks respectively. Then came their turns and acted. When I was going to attack them, the DM used again the reaction because he ruled it was reset on creatures's turn.
I read the definition of round in rules and say explicitly that the round starts with the player with highest initiative and ends after the player with lower initiative. And reactions state that can be used only once by round.
So it seems a round is not as flexible as in past editions and is not relative to each participant but fixed. So our DM was wrong? Please advice...
On a related issue: when you delay, can you delay past the round to reset your initiative so you can have a higher initiative but losing your action(s)? Given the definition of "round" doesn't seem possible, but would like to hear your opinions.
Also "Ready" seems to be an exception since it allows to use your reaction in the next round...
Your DM was wrong. Reactions are available from the beginning of the round to the end of the round, not the creature's turn. They reset at the end of the round.
About delay, read the delay action again.
You wait for the right moment to act. The rest of your turn doesn’t happen yet. Instead, you’re removed from the initiative order. You can return to the initiative order as a free action triggered by the end of any other creature’s turn. This permanently changes your initiative to the new position. You can’t use reactions until you return to the initiative order. If you Delay an entire round without returning to the initiative order, the actions from the Delayed turn are lost, your initiative doesn’t change, and your next turn occurs at your original position in the initiative order.
Also read the sidebar on p469, "Tracking Initiative".
The short answer is yes, you can delay past the end of the round, but no, you can't arbitrarily decide to go first, but you can decide to change your initiative to immediately after, say, the first creature to act in the round, whether it's an adversary or an ally.
Your DM was wrong. Reactions are available from the beginning of the round to the end of the round, not the creature's turn. They reset at the end of the round.
In my opinion your are only partially correct as the CRB is making a difference in bewteen turns and rounds and reactions reset at the beginning of your turn, not the end of the round.
The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens. Once your first turn begins, you gain your actions and reaction.
However CRB also gives us (in the same paragraph on page 472).
You can use 1 reaction per round.
So the enemies could have used their reaction before it was their turn (as the GM sees fit) or after their own turn, however as far as I read this they could not have used it twice in the initial round (unless they have special rules for this of course).
Has he ever played 5e? That's how it works in that system, he probably got the two mixed up.
Has he ever played 5e? That's how it works in that system, he probably got the two mixed up.
yup, we all took a hiatus to play 5e while waiting for pf2e. i think you are right. thanks all for the answers!
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Step 1: Start Your Turn
Source Core Rulebook pg. 468
Many things happen automatically at the start of your turn— it’s a common point for tracking the passage of time for effects that last multiple rounds. At the start of each of your turns, take these steps in any order you choose:
If you created an effect lasting for a certain number of rounds, reduce the number of rounds remaining by 1. The effect ends if the duration is reduced to 0. For example, if you cast a spell that lasts 3 rounds on yourself during your first turn of a fight, it would affect you during that turn, decrease to 2 rounds of duration at the start of your second turn, decrease to 1 round of duration at the start of your third turn, and expire at the start of your fourth turn.
You can use 1 free action or reaction with a trigger of “Your turn begins” or something similar.
If you’re dying, roll a recovery check (page 459).
Do anything else that is specified to happen at the start of your turn.
The last step of starting your turn is always the same.
Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction. If you haven’t spent your reaction from your last turn, you lose it—you can’t “save” actions or reactions from one turn to use during the next turn. If a condition prevents you from being able to act, you don’t regain any actions or your reaction. Some abilities or conditions (such as quickened and slowed) can change how many actions you regain and whether you regain your reaction. If you lose actions and gain additional actions (such as if you’re both quickened and slowed), you choose which actions to lose.
Seems like your GM was right to me. That sentence on page 468 may have been overlooked by the posters above me, but isn't ambigous.
Thank you, I was getting quite confused browsing this thread earlier because I was pretty sure PF2 followed the relatively simple and intuitive 'refresh on your turn' but wasn't able to go digging in the rules earlier. Was a little worried whether I missed something everybody else was seeing.
EDIT: Though looking back now, I see that Ubertron indeed had the right idea, I just wasn't reading closely enough.
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Seems like your GM was right to me. That sentence on page 468 may have been overlooked by the posters above me, but isn't ambigous.
Yes, I'm one of the posters who "overlooked" this detail. Your reaction resets at the end of your turn, so a critter could easily take a reaction before his initiative, and another one after it, but then the next round, his reaction would have already been "used up" until his turn.
Sorry 'bout that. I think I got the "delay" part right, though.
Regain your 3 actions and 1 reaction.
Seems like your GM was right to me. That sentence on page 468 may have been overlooked by the posters above me, but isn't ambigous.
No it was NOT overlooked. However you are ALSO limited by the paragraph on page 472, which clearly states:
Once your first turn begins, you gain your actions and reaction.You can use 1 reaction per round.
So if you used your reaction in the initial round before your initiative count (because the GM ruled that you could) you can't use it in the same round again. You could however use it in the NEXT round before your turn.
That sounds more like a contradiction rather than two limitations to me.
Yeah, "You can use 1 reaction per round." is not really supported by anything else in the book. Just look at Champion's Quick Block feat, which gives you a second reaction. Is that a useless feat? No. Rather, "You can use 1 reaction per round." should be read as generally descriptive, not a hard rule.
Also, "round" essentially has two meanings:
1. One combat round, starting with the combatant with the highest initiative and ending with the one with the lowest.
2. An individual combatant's round, beginning when their turn begins and ending just before their next turn begins.
The second meaning shows up in things like durations measured in rounds (which count down at the start of the caster's turn). I think it's fairly clear that this is the kind of round meant by "1 reaction per round."
I understand that duration of spells is counted from the casters turn to his next turn, however this is only used to determine the duration of spells with of definition of "rounds". Every other definition of round in the CRB explicitly mentions going from the highest initiative count to the lowest initiative count, then start the next round.
Round: A period of time during an encounter in which all participants get a chance to act. A round represents approximately 6 seconds in game time. 13, 468–469 durations measured in rounds 304.
I also understand that feats might change the amounts of reactions available within any given round, however this was not the question (unless above mentioned monster have those feats).
Reaction: An action you can use even if it’s not your turn. You can use 1 reaction per round. 17, 461–462, 472–473.
Thats all I can make of the entries in the CRB.
Note that I would definitely have ruled it as OP's GM did before this thread came up. However after consulting the governing rules I decided to change my mind.
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Can I point to the first bit of the CRB quote:
Once your first turn begins...No reactions before your first turn, so the GM got that bit wrong
Full quote
The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens. Once your first turn begins, you gain your actions and reaction.
So GM can allow it.
Also, "round" essentially has two meanings:
1. One combat round, starting with the combatant with the highest initiative and ending with the one with the lowest.
2. An individual combatant's round, beginning when their turn begins and ending just before their next turn begins.
The second meaning shows up in things like durations measured in rounds (which count down at the start of the caster's turn). I think it's fairly clear that this is the kind of round meant by "1 reaction per round."
Once a combat has run through a few rounds, the end of one combat round flows seamlessly into the beginning of the next combat round. As the GM, I have a list of initiative order--with modifications from delayed turns--but the players have no such list in front of them. If the enemy who went first in initative died, then the beginning of the new comat round becomes unclear.
I expect my players to track only their own individual character rounds. Thus, at my table their character's reactions are by individual round. The enemy characters follow the same rules.
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Honestly, resetting reactions on your turn is also just a better rule. It is much easier to track of you've used your reaction since your last turn than trying to figure out if it qualifies as this round or the round before.
Honestly, resetting reactions on your turn is also just a better rule. It is much easier to track of you've used your reaction since your last turn than trying to figure out if it qualifies as this round or the round before.
Indeed it is, and that is probably how our table will play it too, despite what may be true from RAW.
The only "issues" are that if the GM allows reactions in the initial round - aka before somebodys 1st turn - they will receive 1+ extra reactions for this very combat and that reactions might stack in any given turn, i.e. instead of going 1/1/1/1 you could be going 0/2/0/2 depending on your place in the initiative order relative to your opposition. Don't know how much this will affect combat but e.g. a champion with quick block could block 4 times a round instead of only 2 if we do away with the round limit (2 times before his turn if he did not use the blocks since his last turn and 2 times after his new turn). Possible stacking of reactions will probably make you or the boss monster stronger when fighting multiple opponents (e.g. enemy boss could use AoO before and after his turn instead of only once in the given round).
Wonder how this is played at PFS tables...