| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hi fellow Pathfinders!
I am a bit confused.. On the Table 3-17 Sorcerer spells per day, the cantrip column says "5", but the text states that i can cast cantrips an unlimited number of times per day.. What is the meaning of the "5"?
As a Sorcerer, you know 5 cantrips. You can cast each of those 5 as many times as you want per day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also note that you can learn additional cantrips through the "Cantrip Expansion" class feat at 2nd level. As a spontaneous caster your cantrips aren't limited by your slots, meaning that if you took Cantrip Expansion you would be able to cast all 7 of your cantrips each day as many times as you like.
I mention this because the Spells per day table can be misleading in this instance. I was under the assumption that you had to pick 5 cantrips to have "ready" each day as a Sorcerer. This is not the case.
Also note that you can learn additional cantrips through the "Cantrip Expansion" class feat at 2nd level. As a spontaneous caster your cantrips aren't limited by your slots, meaning that if you took Cantrip Expansion you would be able to cast all 7 of your cantrips each day as many times as you like.
I mention this because the Spells per day table can be misleading in this instance. I was under the assumption that you had to pick 5 cantrips to have "ready" each day as a Sorcerer. This is not the case.
That is an interesting and quite relevant statement. I'm not entirely certain if what you said is intended or not. If so, it actually gives the sorcerer a little bit of spontaneous advantage at the cantrip level, because otherwise wizards are just as spontaneous with their cantrips, save that they can change them out daily for nearly free through their daily preparations. This means that at present, wizards have a stronger/more flexible capability to spontaneously cast cantrips than sorcerers. I like the idea of giving sorcerers that edge back. But I'm not certain this should be done without any limit.
However, I don't think that is the intention. I think cantrips are actually slots, but are slots that doesn't get consumed when cast out of.
Sorcerers can learn new spells, so can absolutely change their cantrips out of their repertoire to another cantrip they come to know. There are mentions of this capability both with respect to leveling up, but also with the supposed ability to do this as a downtime activity, I think even mentioning a page number, but that page doesn't list the time to do so.
I think the important part of the question is understanding that Sorcerer's have different Spells Known, and Spell Repertoire. The repertoire is what they can cast spells out of spontaneously. The spells known are the spells they can place into their repertoire via leveling or downtime activities.
If cantrips can be cast from all spells known, that creates an issue that multiclassed sorcerers would be able to get cantrip scrolls and then have a strong advantage over a multi-classed wizard. (granted before, the table was completely turned the other way, since the multi-classed sorcerer with one 1st level spell simply is a multi-classed wizard without the ability to readily change that spell every day.)
Also note that you can learn additional cantrips through the "Cantrip Expansion" class feat at 2nd level. As a spontaneous caster your cantrips aren't limited by your slots, meaning that if you took Cantrip Expansion you would be able to cast all 7 of your cantrips each day as many times as you like.
I mention this because the Spells per day table can be misleading in this instance. I was under the assumption that you had to pick 5 cantrips to have "ready" each day as a Sorcerer. This is not the case.
Sorcerers can learn new spells, so can absolutely change their cantrips out of their repertoire to another cantrip they come to know. There are mentions of this capability both with respect to leveling up, but also with the supposed ability to do this as a downtime activity, I think even mentioning a page number, but that page doesn't list the time to do so.
I think the important part of the question is understanding that Sorcerer's have different Spells Known, and Spell Repertoire. The repertoire is what they can cast spells out of spontaneously. The spells known are the spells they can place into their repertoire via leveling or downtime activities.
If cantrips can be cast from all spells known, that creates an issue that multiclassed sorcerers would be able to get cantrip scrolls and then have a strong advantage over a multi-classed wizard. (granted before, the table was completely turned the other way, since the multi-classed sorcerer with one 1st level spell simply is a multi-classed wizard without the ability to readily change that spell every day.)
I may be misunderstanding you but I don't think this is correct. A Sorcerer's "Spells Known" is their repertoire. I think what you are referring to is the Sorcerer's Spell List, which is the tradition their bloodline gives them access to.
Table 3-17 on page 193 gives you a Sorcerer's Spell Slots. There is a clear distinction between spells in a Sorcerer's Spell Repertoire and the number of slots they have access to. But because a Sorcerer is a Spontaneous caster they have the flexibility to cast any of their "known spells" (Spells in their repertoire) with the relevant spell slot at will.
Because Cantrips do not "use up" a spell slot when cast, a Sorcerer will never run out of "slots" for those cantrips. But a Sorcerer can only cast spells in their repertoire, which is limited to the number of cantrips that they learned at 1st level and the additional 2 cantrips from Cantrip Expansion if they choose to take it. As you stated, the only way for a Sorcerer to change those cantrips is through leveling or a downtime activity to retrain them.
On page 238 in the Core rulebook, in the entry under Learning a spell. it states that after Learning a Spell it has certain effects, depending on how you cast spells. It lists, "if you have a spell repertoire, you can select it when you add or swap spells." as the effect of Learning a new spell.
So based on this, it seems like spontaneous casters have
Spell Lists: which consist of their tradition + bonus spells by class features.
Known Spells: which represent the spells that can be swapped in and out of their Repertoire when you add.
Repertoire Spells: which are the spells they can spontaneously cast of their own abilities. (note, when adding to a Repertoire you can also always add spells on your list that are common, however not uncommon or rarer, unless of course they are known already)
Or at least that is how I came to understand it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Learn a Spell action is most likely there to allow a Sorcerer to learn Uncommon and Rare Spells. As is, you are unable to learn them as you level unless they are part of your bloodline.
The Learn a Spell action otherwise has little to no use for a Sorcerer. You already have access to all of the common spells of your tradition for the purposes of learning a new spell or swapping out an old spell.