A few questions about style feats.

[Senko]

So if your playing the dashing thief archetype you gain rogue talents and one talent lets you select a ninja talent in place of a rogue one. One ninja talent is style master that gives her a style feat she qualifies for. All straightforward so far. Now the feat chain that drew my eye is swordstyle.

Benefit(s): Choose one weapon from the heavy blades or light blades fighter weapon group. While using this style, wielding the chosen weapon, and fighting defensively or using either the total defense action or the Combat Expertise feat, you gain a +1 shield bonus to your Armor Class. In addition, you do not take the penalty on melee attacks from Combat Expertise on the first attack roll you make each turn. You still take the penalty on additional attacks, including attacks of opportunity.

So this brings up my first question a Dashing Thief using a buckler gets a +1 shield bonus, a Dashing thief using this style gets +1 shield bonus. Again fine like bonus take the best in this case both +1. However a magic buckler e.g. +3 adds that to its shield bonus for a total of +4 so would a magic sword do the same for this feat? That is if you have a magic sword +2 would it increase your shield bonus when using this feat as your shielding yourself with that magic sword in the same way a magic shield would add to your shield bonus when using that shield.

The second question is in regards to the last feat in the chain . . .

While using Swordplay Style, when you make one or more melee attacks, you can forgo a single melee attack to prepare an action to disrupt an opponent’s attack. This functions as a swashbuckler’s opportune parry and riposte deed, except that if your result is greater than your opponent’s, you gain a +4 shield bonus to your Armor Class against attacks made by your opponent until the start of your next turn instead of preventing the hit, and you cannot attempt to riposte. If you have the opportune parry and riposte deed, you gain this Armor Class bonus anytime you successfully parry an opponent’s attack.

Do you think the bolded bit means

1) You can parry for +4 AC as if you were a Swashbuckler but don't get the feint option and THEN if you are a swashbuckler you gain the AC on every parry and can also riposte the attack.

2) You can parry for +4 AC and if you are a Swashbuckler you can do this on every parry using your class ability instead of needing to sacrifice an attack but you need to choose either to gain the AC bonus or to use the parry to make a riposte and attack your foe.

3) You can parry for +4 AC and if your a Swashbuckler you get it on every successful use of your class ability as well as if you sacrifice an attack plus you can riposte if you meet its requirements.

4) You can parry for +4 AC and if your a Swashbuckler you must use this instead of riposte attacking.

Personally I think from my reading its number 3 anyone can sacrifice an attack to parry for a bonus to AC, Swashbucklers can also get the AC bonus when using their class ability and in addition also make a riposte attack. Especially since this is very expensive needing 5 other feats to get it. However I'd like feedback from those more familiar with these rules please?

[avr]

No, swords with an enhancement bonus don't add to the shield AC bonus that swordplay style gives you. Just to attack and damage.

If you have swordplay deflection (last feat in that chain): If you prepare an attack to parry you get +4 AC if it works, but can't riposte regardless of whether you have OP&R. If you use an AoO via OP&R to parry then you {stop the attack and get +4 AC and can riposte} if that parry works. Feinting is separate, and swordplay upset allows you to feint as an immediate action if the enemy misses for any reason - of course you need to still have an immediate action available, which competes with your riposte.

[Derklord]

Both abilities are strictly seperate. You could use both on the same attack, but you'd resolve one after the other, and you'd have to declare that before the enemy's attack roll is made.

• If the parry-roll from the feat succeeds, you get +4 AC against that enemy until your next turn, and nothing more.
• If the parry-roll form the class feature succeeds, the attack misses, and you can make a riposte attack.

That you have the class feature is completely, utterly irrelevant for what the feat does, and vice versa. You resolve a feat parry attempt from the feat exactly the same on a Swashbuckler as on a non-Swashbuckler, and you resolve a parry attempt from the class feature exactly the same whether you have the feat or not.

On a different note, Style Feats are combat feats, so a regular Swashbuckler could pick them up with their bonus feats. Not sure why youäd want Dashing Thief here.

[Senko]

Derklord wrote:

Both abilities are strictly seperate. You could use both on the same attack, but you'd resolve one after the other, and you'd have to declare that before the enemy's attack roll is made.

• If the parry-roll from the feat succeeds, you get +4 AC against that enemy until your next turn, and nothing more.
• If the parry-roll form the class feature succeeds, the attack misses, and you can make a riposte attack.

That you have the class feature is completely, utterly irrelevant for what the feat does, and vice versa. You resolve a feat parry attempt from the feat exactly the same on a Swashbuckler as on a non-Swashbuckler, and you resolve a parry attempt from the class feature exactly the same whether you have the feat or not.

On a different note, Style Feats are combat feats, so a regular Swashbuckler could pick them up with their bonus feats. Not sure why youäd want Dashing Thief here.

Dashing thief was recommended to me in my Swashbuckler help thread.

So you say I need to parry twice? Enemy attacks, parry roll to see if I get the AC then a second parry roll to see if I can riposte? That doesn't sound right first off this has 5 feats as a pre-requisite if it worked like that why would you bother as it gives you two possibiliites to fail and be hit and if your saying I need to use one or the other that's contradicted by the last sentence . . .

"If you have the opportune parry and riposte deed, you gain this Armor Class bonus anytime you successfully parry an opponent’s attack."

Which to me reads closer to AVR's

avr wrote:

No, swords with an enhancement bonus don't add to the shield AC bonus that swordplay style gives you. Just to attack and damage.

If you have swordplay deflection (last feat in that chain): If you prepare an attack to parry you get +4 AC if it works, but can't riposte regardless of whether you have OP&R. If you use an AoO via OP&R to parry then you {stop the attack and get +4 AC and can riposte} if that parry works. Feinting is separate, and swordplay upset allows you to feint as an immediate action if the enemy misses for any reason - of course you need to still have an immediate action available, which competes with your riposte.

Which would be my number 3 anyone can give up an attack to parry for +4 but the swashbuckler if they use their ability gets the +4 for a successful parry and then they can riposte with class ability.

[RAWmonger]

It’s basically number 3. What he was saying is that if you wanted to play *really* safe you could do both. A swashbuckler could forfeit an attack and use this feat as it’s written, and then if they fail that roll they could *also* use their own parry/riposte as an AoO, or vice versa.

A swashbuckler with these feats can use his normal P&R deed, and both deflects the attack AND gains +4 AC vs that enemy for the rest of the round.

However if a swashbuckler for some reason is out of attack of opportunities or cannot make them for some reason, and he decides to use this feat to forfeit an attack to try and parry later, he *only* gains the +4 AC and does not get to riposte

[Derklord]

Ah, I missed something, rendering part of my last post incorrect. My apologies.

Still, none of your "options" is correct. #3 comes close, but a Swashbuckler still has the ability to use the feat (either only the feat, or both feat and deed against the same attack).

For a Swashbuckler:
• If you only used the deed, on a successful parry roll, three things happen: 1st) the attack automatically misses, 2nd) you gain a +4 shield bonus to AC against that enemy until your next turn, and 3rd) you have the option to make a riposte attack.
• If you only use the feat, on a successful parry roll, you gain a +4 shield bonus to AC against that enemy until your next turn (including against the attack in question).
• If you use both, you resolve both seperately.

[Senko]

SO if you use both and fail 1 parry do you get hit?

[RAWmonger]

It depends which parry you fail. The feat only grants you +4 AC, so if you fail the class ability parry, but succeed the feat parry, your only get your +4 to AC, meaning they *could* still hit you if their attack roll was high enough to beat your new AC (and you do not get the opportunity to riposte).

However, if you fail the feat parry, but succeed on the class ability parry, the attack misses *and* you gain +4 AC against that enemy until the start of your next turn, *and* you get the opportunity to riposte, as long as you can still take an immediate action.

I think you're getting too hung up on how these two things work together. They are entirely separate abilities that function separately of each other. They have absolutely no interaction with one another except that the swashbucker gets the +4 AC no matter how he uses his parry option.

As long as you succeed a parry, you get the benefit of *that* parry. If it's the feat, you get +4, if it's the class ability, the attack automatically misses *and* you get the +4.

[RAWmonger]

I'm going to type this a second time because I think it's the part that you're getting confused about.

Using the feat, when you forego one of your attacks, you can use that attack to attempt to deflect the opponent's attack. Parrying this way *ONLY GIVES YOU THE +4 SHIELD BONUS TO AC*. Nothing else. It does not deflect the attack or allow you to riposte.

Using your class ability, you *do not* have to forego one of your attacks. You spend a panache point and one use of any attack of opportunities you have. Parrying this way *deflects this attack* and grants you the +4 shield bonus, also allowing you to riposte.

You can choose to do both of these things if you wish. When the opponent attacks you, before he makes his roll, you will declare that you using one of your parry abilities. You will roll for this. The result of this roll is for the type of parry you initially declared.

Then again, BEFORE the enemy rolls, you can decide to use your other parry ability, make your roll, the result of THIS roll is for the type of parry you initially declared.

The enemy rolls. If his result beats BOTH of yours, you get no benefits.

If his result beats ONLY your class ability, but your feat parry succeeded, you gain a +4 shield bonus to your AC vs this attack and any others from this enemy until your next turn. You compare the result of his roll to your new armor class. He may or may not hit you depending on his result.

If his results beats ONLY your feat, but your class ability parry succeeds, THIS ATTACK is automatically deflected, and you gain a +4 shield bonus to his future attacks until the start of your next turn. If you have an immediate action available, you may attempt to parry him.

If his results failed to BOTH of your parry attempts, congratulations you wasted an attack on your turn. You get the same result as if only your class ability succeeded. His attack misses, you gain +4 bonus, you can riposte.

[RAWmonger]

TL DR; If you use both and only fail 1, you don't get the benefits of the one you failed.

[Senko]

So either way its one attack your attempting to parry twice, that could be humiliating to the enemy. Parry to your left then "No wait I think I prefer you over here" second parry on the already deflected attack sending it to your right.

Ok thanks I think I've got it.

[avr]

Could happen that way. If you sacrifice your offensive ability it's also possible the enemy might ignore you in favour of softer but more dangerous targets. Which might be humiliating to you...

[RAWmonger]

Senko wrote:

So either way its one attack your attempting to parry twice, that could be humiliating to the enemy. Parry to your left then "No wait I think I prefer you over here" second parry on the already deflected attack sending it to your right.

Ok thanks I think I've got it.

You play it however you want, and this isn't the Advice forum, but still.. let me give you some advice...

As a swashbuckler, you should never, ever.... EVER... use this ability any way except as your class ability.

The entire of kit of swashbuckler revolves around hitting as many attacks as possible. Don't cash out on one of your attacks just to gain +4 (or less, if you already have a shield bonus) to your AC, it's simply not worth it.

Swashbuckler is already a bad enough class... literally *all* it has going for it is OP&R, level to damage, and early improved crit....

Not to mention playing it safe isn't the swashbuckler way... get in there and cut 'em up.

[Senko]

Well that was why I was asking originally how it worked and you don't need to give up anything as just taking the feat means (if I understand the responses here) if you parry you get the +4AC from your class ability. That is use OP&R and if you successfully parry get a free +4 AC vs that foe till your next round.

If they ignore you then you stab them in the back or if you have invested in Archon style you can just grab the attack of someone else.

[Chell Raighn]

Senko wrote:

If they ignore you then you stab them in the back or if you have invested in Archon style you can just grab the attack of someone else.

Unfortunately you can only utilize one Style feat at a time. If you are not in the associated style stance then you can't use the style feat. You would have to be in Sword Style Stance to get the Sword Style benefits, and Archon Style Stance for Archon Style benefits. It is a Swift action to enter a stance, and you remain in the stance until you spend another Swift action to change or end your stance.

[Senko]

That as more of a seperate option of using Arhcon instead of Sword to pull their sword away and use the deed to riposte.