I hate Enlarge Person. It just feels very...Saturday morning cartoon. Gimmicky and gaudy. Especially if the setting favor subtle spells over gross ones.
But it's also a common go-to for martial classes. Absurdly so, to the point that it's almost just assume that your fighter/barbarian/whatever can, in some fashion, turn into a 12ft giant as a standard aspect of their capabilities.
So I'm currently thinking of removing Enlarge Person from my games and maybe replacing it with some kind of basic augmentation spell. +1 attack, damage and AC, 10 minutes/level?
Any ideas?
Enlarge person also enables control by increasing reach. A replacement needs that too IMO.
For your Winterlands setting at least maybe cut down aspect of the wolf/bear slightly and make them available on more spell lists - the trip from aspect of the wolf or bear's ability to overrun (without having multiple feats devoted to it) might substitute for reach a bit.
We almost never used enlarge person at our table. Most people don't like the AC hit from the dex and size penalties.
My new dude is the first one to really make a build around it (lizardfolk bloodrager grappler), and I find it pretty cool, he's basically the hulk.
The reach is certainly nice, as is the str bonus and CMB bonus, but it hardly seems broken to me.
Really? The increased damage die is a "big one"? That's like the least meaningful buff.
An 1d3 attack will go to 1d4. You get a chance to do at most 1 damage, which is already granted by the strength bonus (which will give you 1 or 2 bonus damage, depending on the current modifier and if you are two-handing). An 1d4 attack will go to 1d6, again, lesser than the str bonus. If you had a two-handed weapon to begin with, the damage bonus will be slightly larger, but overall, still pretty small.
Reach is really the biggest bonus, especially at that level, imo. The increased weapon size dice feels pretty minor.
But it's also a common go-to for martial classes. Absurdly so, to the point that it's almost just assume that your fighter/barbarian/whatever can, in some fashion, turn into a 12ft giant as a standard aspect of their capabilities.
Huh. It certainly isn't at my table, or in my build plans. Of course, I don't usually build melee characters that stop working when the enemy is more than 10ft away.
If you want to replace it, a non-personal version of Long Arm would work well enough, I'd think.
It already has a round casting time to make it harder to use in combat. Have you considered just not letting it work with potions?
Enlarge person also enables control by increasing reach. A replacement needs that too...
Does it? I figured, if you want reach, you pick up a longspear. The reach is the biggest boon of the spell; the reason the spell needs drawbacks, I think.
If we want additional control...what about a spell that works sort of like Lunge and/or gives you additional AoP?
..it hardly seems broken to me.
I'm not saying it's broken. I'm saying that (1) it seems like most people on these forums consider it a standard, and between the reach and 2-5 extra damage, I can see why and (2) it's feel is too hokey and over-the-top for games with a more subtle/serious tone.
Your idea replaces a great buff for a few classes with an ok buff for everyone. I'd say your idea would be a 100% absolute requirement for the party's caster to have on hand at all times. How would you cover the increase in reach and weapon damage (IMO the primary reasons to cast the spell in the first place)?
I mean...it's Magic Weapon that can't overcome DR or hit ghosts, plus 1/4 Mage Armor.
But sure, it's more generally useful.I would cover the increased reach and weapon damage by...not.
I'm not looking for a spell that replaces every aspect of Enlarge Person. I am looking for a viable bolstering spell that doesn't have such a corny feel.
I recognize that Enlarge Person is very, very good for certain characters. I am not overly concerned with giving them something just as good; I am plenty generous with other houserules.
Huh. It certainly isn't at my table, or in my build plans. Of course, I don't usually build melee characters that stop working when the enemy is more than 10ft away.
If you want to replace it, a non-personal version of Long Arm would work well enough, I'd think.
To be fair, it isn't really at my table specifically. I just keep seeing it as part of the inevitable shenanigans that come up with every "optimized" build on here. It sees some use at the table in some of our games, but my encounters are complex and varied enough that increasing your mass by 8 is often a poor option.
Long Arm looks fairly straightforward. Range of touch, 10min/level and levies a -2 AC, maybe.It already has a round casting time to make it harder to use in combat. Have you considered just not letting it work with potions?
I feel like my original post wasn't clear: I am NOT saying Enlarge Person is omg so broken. I am saying that it doesn't feel right in most of my games. A lot of spells don't, but this one helps the martials, and at low-levels, so I didn't want to just say "not in my game" and leave it at that.
I'm over here trying to do On The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm. I don't need one of my players trying to go all Power Rangers.
I guess the simplest thing would be to give all of the modifiers, but not actually increase the size category.
So, +2 Str, -2 Dex, increased damage die, -1 to attack and AC, +1 to CMB and CMD, and an increased reach. Maybe the spell even still makes them a little bigger as fluff, but not enough to actually change their size category.
To be fair, it isn't really at my table specifically. I just keep seeing it as part of the inevitable shenanigans that come up with every "optimized" build on here.
I kinda suspect you're mistaking seeing Scott Wilhelm shill his favourite build in every thread he can find, with actual optimization suggestions by people who understand the game.
I guess the simplest thing would be to give all of the modifiers, but not actually increase the size category.
I briefly considered that, but I think the increased real estate you take up is a downside, overall. So taking that out just seems like making it better.
Plus, it just feels like a cheat. I'm not afraid to come up with new stuff. I don't mind the work. Just thought I'd bounce some ideas around on here.I kinda suspect you're mistaking seeing Scott Wilhelm shill his favourite build in every thread he can find, with actual optimization suggestions by people who understand the game.
Perhaps. I don't deal with things like "builds" or "optimization" in my games. My players build characters they want to play, we tweak the system until they're all roughly on the same level, and then I throw the world at them and see if they can survive in it.
We don't use traits or goofy exotic weapons or obscure bits of equipment or even much in the way of races and classes beyond the basics. There's always a lot of hacking going on at my end, but it's a labor of love. In 20 years, we've never gotten bored with elven fighters and half-orc druids. And when we do, we pick up an entirely different system and play that for a while.At any rate, the mechanics are only about a quarter of why I dislike Enlarge Person. The bigger issue is offering a decent spell to replace it in games where I am not actively trying to create a Super Mario vibe.
I guess the simplest thing would be to give all of the modifiers, but not actually increase the size category.I briefly considered that, but I think the increased real estate you take up is a downside, overall. So taking that out just seems like making it better.
Plus, it just feels like a cheat. I'm not afraid to come up with new stuff. I don't mind the work. Just thought I'd bounce some ideas around on here.
Taking up more "real estate" is as much of a bonus as penalty. The larger you are, the more squares you threaten and with the increased reach, that means more opportunities to get an attack of opportunity. Really, almost everything about changing sizes is full of pros and cons.
I guess you could drop most of the size related stuff. Make it just give +2 strength and -2 dexterity. That's pretty boring though, so you might want to add one more unusual benefit.
Taking up more "real estate" is as much of a bonus as penalty. The larger you are, the more squares you threaten...
Threatening more squares is nice.
Having to squeeze through corridors, dealing with low ceilings, getting out flanked, suddenly weighing 8 times what you normally do are not.So, *overall*, I think taking up more squares is a downside.
Increasing your reach is a separate element of the spell, and the main benefit, in my opinion.
Make it just give +2 strength and -2 dexterity.
Compare that to Magic Weapon. Same bonus to attack and damage, +1 to related skills, not tied to a specific weapon, can't overcome DR or cut ghosts. That would be fairly balance. Like a lesser Bull's Strength. Calf's Strength, if you will.
But the -2 to Dex makes it decidedly worse.I'd consider increasing reach and penalizing AC to be reasonable. Or a flat minor bonus to attack, damage and something else, like a Lesser Heroism.
As I said above, it feels kind of like a cop out. Plus, taking up 4 squares is definitely a drawback most of the time, so cutting that part out seems more like an upgrade to me than anything.
Maybe if you think it's a bit too good, then just take out the bonuses to CMB and CMD.
If the actual size (and weight) increase is a relevant drawback in your games, the spell shouldn't be that popular anyway, so does it actually need a replacement? Enlarge Person is used for a) reach and b) non-virtual size increase (to be stacked with a virtual size increase, for the kiddies who think that rolling many weapon damage dice makes them more manly). If the latter doesn't fit your setting, only the former remains; for that, a round-per-level non-personal double-your-reach spell would suffice. No need to create a generic buffing spell for everyone, to replace a spell only used by few.