Really disappointed with Archetype Design Patterns


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion


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I was very excited for 2E when it rolled in, but, as someone who wants to be in the game for the long haul, I've found archetype design to be very flawed.

The reasons for this are twofold mostly:

1. Some archetypes do what Skill Feats (and some General Feats) are supposed to. A lot of them are focused on flavor and out-of-combat skills – being forced to spend Class Feats on these goes against the design tenets of 2E in general. That is, that optimization (Class Feats) doesn't need to be sacrificed for roleplaying (Skill/General Feats).

2. Some archetypes openly invite for optimization-through-roleplay. This was one of the most egregious problems of 1E, with every Paladin out there being raised by the Fae to get some extra juice out of Lay of Hands. The same appears in 2E, with some Class Archetypes granting the benefit of several feats at the same time, and some of them giving Class Feats and then some more (like the Lastwall Sentry or the Student of Perfection).\

These are all issues that can be solved, but they require designers to consider them as issues that need a fix.

Scarab Sages

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In regards to your first issue, you do realize that if the Archetype feat has the <skill> tag that it is a skill feat and is taken with your skill feats instead of class feats right?

As for the second. I'm not sure how you would have some feats not be better than others for certain builds? Thats the nature of the game. Unless you are advocating removing all roleplaying aspects from the archetypes, which once again seems like it would be stripping the base nature of the game itself from the game.


I don't think 1 is invalidating the design tenant really. It isn't that you can't trade [Combat] optimization for roleplaying, its that you don't have to.

In PF1 every option COULD be used on a combat option, which meant non combat stuff was on a big back burner and the games maths expected you to have those options. In PF2 you have dedicated resources to that space, but you can if you so choose dedicate even more. I personally think this is a great thing that a PF2 has dedications that let you lean away from combat, it broadens the scope of what the game represents.


I'm for the variant rule that many people do where you simply get a dedication feat when you start at 1. While this negates the ancient elf feat. I'd argue that's fine since elves have very many good feats already and means you don't need to play as an elf is you have the feats you know you want already planned out and you don't want to give one up for a simple dedication.

Doesn't overpower anything and you don't have to give up a class feat for the dedication/archetype.

Number 2 was never a bother for me in 1e and do still isn't in 2e but I don't play society and don't feel the need to play the same way every time for some extra juice.

Though I love monks for Gish. Rangers too


Secret Wizard wrote:


2. Some archetypes openly invite for optimization-through-roleplay. This was one of the most egregious problems of 1E, with every Paladin out there being raised by the Fae to get some extra juice out of Lay of Hands. The same appears in 2E, with some Class Archetypes granting the benefit of several feats at the same time, and some of them giving Class Feats and then some more (like the Lastwall Sentry or the Student of Perfection).

The big downside to Student of Perfection is that you're spending a 2nd-level feat on a 1st-level bonus, and that it locks you into it unless you take all the feats from the archetype. The upside is that you can also go into it from classes you might not normally be able to benefit from as much.

I'm not sure those are small downsides.

I'd say the likelihood of people taking Adopted Ancestry (human) is likely higher than specifically archetyping for feats.

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