Am I right in assuming that unless otherwise specified, when something is triggered by a failure/success, it's also triggered by a critical failure/critical success? It seems as if this is the intent of the rules, as there are rules that state "you fail but do not critically fail" (Cognitive Loophole).
However, there's also "failure effect", which I assume triggers only on a failure specifically (Certain Strike, for example). This seems to override the default failure state and replace it with the prerequisite text, but it also seems confusing, as it implies "Failure" isn't inclusive of "Critical Failure", which I think is not the intention for most things?
Beyond this, there's "Greater Juggernaut", which states "when you fail a fortitude save...". That seems to imply not critically failing, for example.
All-in-all, these rules seem somewhat contradictory. Is there a straight-forward way to parse this?
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A critical failure is still a failure. A critical success is still a success.
Zaister wrote: A critical failure is still a failure. A critical success is still a success. Okay, so greater fortitude means you take half damage whether you fail or critically fail the saving throw then? Is that the base assumption here?
Also, does your statement above include "failure effect". Should certain strike do minimum damage on a critical failure, since it's also a failure?
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I think you're probably just going to have to look at each individual instance in context and see what makes sense.
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" Note that not all checks have a special effect on a
critical success or critical failure and such results should
be treated just like an ordinary success or failure instead." p10 CRB
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This appears to mean that unless specified a critical success/failure is treated like a regular success/failure
Thus, a critical failure would not trigger "cognitive loophole" since it explicitly excludes it.
"Certain Strike" appears to trigger with a critical failure since the specific rules do not exclude it. Remember that certain strike excludes ALL damage dice so it does NOT do minimum damage (i.e. where dice are considered to be 1s, instead dice are not counted at all),
"Greater Juggernaut" you will take half damage at the worst from a fort save (since critical failures are treated as regular failures)
"Greater Fortitude" I cannot find. Great Fortitude just increases your proficiency
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I think Laran has the right of it.
Like for Certain Strike, the strike action doesn't even have a critical failure effect, so critically failing a strike has no special effect (unless some other ability provides one).
That sounds right to me. Thanks for the rules cite! So the rules to follow are:
1) If it's a success/failure *effect* and you get a critical, you apply it only if there's not already a critical (success/failure) effect specific to that action.
2) If it's a success/failure trigger, it triggers on critical success/critical failure respectively.
That's simple enough to follow. I think I was referencing Greater Juggernaut earlier, which, in fairness, I had missed the first part about treating crit failures as failures. It is a bit obtuse, and I wish it was spelled out in a single place a bit better, but it's at least following a simple set of rules.
EDIT: If another ability gave a critical failure effect then, it would override Certain Strike's failure effect I assume, then, and you, on a critical failure, would do whatever *that* specified?
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Greater Juggernaut wrote: You have a stalwart physiology. Your proficiency rank for Fortitude saves increases to legendary. When you roll a critical failure on a Fortitude save, you get a failure instead. When you roll a failure on a Fortitude save against an effect that deals damage, you halve the damage you take. You will take full damage if you *roll* a critical failure, just as if you had rolled a failure. If you *roll* a failure, you only take half damage.
You don't convert a crit fail into a normal fail and then apply the effect for rolling a normal fail.
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theservantsllcleanitup wrote: Greater Juggernaut wrote: You have a stalwart physiology. Your proficiency rank for Fortitude saves increases to legendary. When you roll a critical failure on a Fortitude save, you get a failure instead. When you roll a failure on a Fortitude save against an effect that deals damage, you halve the damage you take. You will take full damage if you *roll* a critical failure, just as if you had rolled a failure. If you *roll* a failure, you only take half damage.
You don't convert a crit fail into a normal fail and then apply the effect for rolling a normal fail. Initially I agreed with this but then I read it more and I stand by my initial interpretation. When you roll a critical failure it is as if you rolled a normal failure. The sentence does NOT say "When you roll a critical failure, apply the normal failure effect." It says when you roll and the result would normally be a critical failure, the result is considered a failure instead. The result of the roll is treated as a normal failure which would then trigger the half damage
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Greater Juggernaut ability is a little tricky because it specifies " when you roll a failure."
I think to qualify for half damage, the result on the die has to qualify as a failure. Whereas, if the roll would be a critical failure, you get to take the normal failure result, but the roll on the die is still a critical failure and not a failure.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I think where some folks are being led astray is assuming that critical results always build off of a failure/success result, which is not true. Where no result is listed, there is no effect. Certain strike most certainly has no effect on a critical failure, not the same effect as a failure.
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Unicore wrote: Certain strike most certainly has no effect on a critical failure, not the same effect as a failure. That runs contrary to the rules Laran quoted that say to treat critical failures as normal failures if there's no critical failure effect specified.
Neither Certain Strike nor the regular Strike action have a critical failure effect, so... yes it does has the same effect on a critical failure, per page 10 of the CRB. This is explicit rules text.
Essentially, you can't critically fail certain strike, because there's no critical failure clause in the ability.
Squiggit wrote: Unicore wrote: Certain strike most certainly has no effect on a critical failure, not the same effect as a failure. That runs contrary to the rules Laran quoted that say to treat critical failures as normal failures if there's no critical failure effect specified.
Neither Certain Strike nor the regular Strike action have a critical failure effect, so... yes it does has the same effect on a critical failure, per page 10 of the CRB. This is explicit rules text.
Essentially, you can't critically fail certain strike, because there's no critical failure clause in the ability. Yeah, see, that's the problem. These rules all kinda feel counter-intuitive/obtuse. I think I agree with you Squiggit, but it wasn't what I assumed RAI was... Similarly for Greater Juggernaut, there's a lot of uncertainty there about how the clauses should be applied. I think Unicorne is right on that one, however, but not 100% sure.
RAI as far as I can tell there are two things to keep in mind:
-Critical effects are properties of the check in question rather than universal. If something doesn't have a critical effect, it doesn't crit. You just fail or succeed (unless some other feature makes those critical values relevant). If something does have a critical effect, then the tiers become discrete and separate.
-You're not supposed to be able to piggyback upgrade effects. So CritFail -> Fail and Fail -> Half isn't supposed to be CritFail -> Half.
The first part I think is well supported by the RAW and certain abilities don't work properly if you don't read that way. The latter definitely isn't specific enough though and I think the rules should probably be clarified to that end.
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Laran wrote:
Initially I agreed with this but then I read it more and I stand by my initial interpretation. When you roll a critical failure it is as if you rolled a normal failure. The sentence does NOT say "When you roll a critical failure, apply the normal failure effect." It says when you roll and the result would normally be a critical failure, the result is considered a failure instead. The result of the roll is treated as a normal failure which would then trigger the half damage
You should double check the errata. It specifically calls out the change from "when you fail" to "when you roll a failure". They explain that they explicitly made this change to not allow a critical failure to be moved up two tiers.
https://paizo-images.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/image/download/PZO2101+Erra ta+1.0.pdf
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Note that the failure effect of Certain Strike DOES NOT apply when it is a critical failure. Certain Strike has the Press trait. Page 635 of CRB states "The effects that are added on a failure don’t apply on a critical failure." This also then applies to things like Exacting Strike (press trait), which means if you critically fail your Exacting Strike attack, the next is not at the same MAP.
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The effects of Certain Strike (and other Fighter feat failure effects of Press feats) DON'T apply on a critical failure. There are specific rules for that in the description of the Press trait (a bit hidden):
https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=133
Quote: Some actions with the press trait also grant an effect on a failure. The effects that are added on a failure don’t apply on a critical failure. If your press action succeeds, you can choose to apply the failure effect instead.
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masda_gib wrote: The effects of Certain Strike (and other Fighter feat failure effects of Press feats) DON'T apply on a critical failure. There are specific rules for that in the description of the Press trait (a bit hidden):
https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=133
Quote: Some actions with the press trait also grant an effect on a failure. The effects that are added on a failure don’t apply on a critical failure. If your press action succeeds, you can choose to apply the failure effect instead.
Thank you! I knew I remembered this to be the case but couldn’t define why according to the rulebook.
Right, missed that feature of the press trait, sorry.
So Certain Strike wouldn't work, I think the rest of the points hold true though.
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