Take illusory creature, for example. It says ""
If the illusory creature attacks you, do you then get to make the check to disbelieve? Or does it only happen when YOU proactively touch the image? Does it matter if it's you touching it, or your weapon (or other held object) touching it, such as when you're attacking it?
The answer can have a dramatic effect on illusion spell balance.
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Can't agree with Rysky here. The trend in general with illusion spells in PF2 is for checks to come when the checking party takes some sort of initiative to verify the illusion, having illusory creature offer automatic checks whenever it attacks would be a pretty big departure from those conventions.
That interpretation would also make the spell significantly weaker if you create illusions of melee creatures instead of ranged creatures, which creates a newb trap that doesn't really add anything to the game either.
Finally, it would mean that in the case of creatures with disproportionate damage, you'd get to make two checks per attack, which again seems pretty punishing for the spell and contrary to the way most everything else in the game works.
All in all, reading the ability in that way is just really inconsistent with the rest of PF2 and cripples the functionality of the spell needlessly and I don't find the text itself definitive enough to override those issues.
Except that in PF1 touching worked only in one direction. Then too, touching wasn't a clearly defined event and this only was clarified later.
I'd count weapons and other active touching by the creature, but (for now) would not count being touched by the illusion. The emphasis seems to be on the creature doing something and it'd be a large oversight not to also mention if something's done to the creature.
For extended contact by the illusion, like if it lasts until the creature's turn, I'd count that for a disbelieve roll.
Hopefully this gets answered before it arises in PFS play.
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Sometimes illusions allow an affected creature a chance to disbelieve the spell, which lets the creature effectively ignore the spell if it succeeds at doing so. This usually happens when a creature Seeks or otherwise spends actions to engage with the illusion, comparing the result of its Perception check (or another check or saving throw, at the GM's discretion) to the caster's spell DC. Mental illusions typically provide rules in the spell's description for disbelieving the effect (often allowing the affected creature to attempt a Will save).
If the illusion is visual, and a creature interacts with the illusion in a way that would prove it is not what it seems, the creature might know that an illusion is present, but it still can't ignore the illusion without successfully disbelieving it. For instance, if a character is pushed through the illusion of a door, they will know that the door is an illusion, but they still can't see through it. Disbelieving an illusion makes it and those things it blocks seem hazy and indistinct, so even in the case where a visual illusion is disbelieved, it may, at the GM's discretion, block vision enough to make those on the other side concealed.
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“Does it matter if it's you touching it, or your weapon (or other held object) touching it, such as when you're attacking it?”
Actually looking at the spell your question is already answered there.
AUDITORY ILLUSION VISUAL
Traditions arcane, occult
Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal
Range 500 feet
Duration sustainedYou create an illusory image of a Large or smaller creature. It generates the appropriate sounds, smells, and feels believable to the touch. If you and the image are ever farther than 500 feet apart, the spell ends.
The image can't speak, but you can use your actions to speak through the creature, with the spell disguising your voice as appropriate. You might need to attempt a Deception or Performance check to mimic the creature, as determined by the GM. This is especially likely if you're trying to imitate a specific person and engage with someone that person knows.
In combat, the illusion can use 2 actions per turn, which it uses when you Sustain the Spell. It uses your spell attack roll for attack rolls and your spell DC for its AC. Its saving throw modifiers are equal to your spell DC – 10. It is substantial enough that it can flank other creatures. If the image is hit by an attack or fails a save, the spell ends.
The illusion can cause damage by making the target believe the illusion's attacks are real, but it cannot otherwise directly affect the physical world. If the illusory creature hits with a Strike, the target takes mental damage equal to 1d4 plus your spellcasting ability modifier. This is a mental effect. The illusion's Strikes are nonlethal. If the damage doesn't correspond to the image of the monster—for example, if an illusory Large dragon deals only 5 damage—the GM might allow the target to attempt a Perception check to disbelieve the spell as a free action. Any relevant resistances and weaknesses apply if the target thinks they do, as judged by the GM. For example, if the illusion wields a warhammer and attacks a creature resistant to bludgeoning damage, the creature would take less mental damage. However, illusory damage does not deactivate regeneration or trigger other effects that require a certain damage type. The GM should track illusory damage dealt by the illusion.
Any creature that touches the image or uses the Seek action to examine it can attempt to disbelieve your illusion. When a creature disbelieves the illusion, it recovers from half the damage it had taken from it (if any) and doesn't take any further damage from it.
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Reading Illusory Creature, it has a specific callout about getting a save if the damage from the creature “doesn’t feel right” to paraphrase.
Being the only Illusion of its nature (that I’m aware of) that lends credence to Illusions interacting with people in how they function prompts a save in lieu of an actual rule saying they don’t.
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Sorry for the multiple posts, keep having to do stuff outside.
That interpretation would also make the spell significantly weaker if you create illusions of melee creatures instead of ranged creatures,It’s a level 2 spell.
which creates a newb trap that doesn't really add anything to the game either.
”Newb trap” is rather extreme, and “not adding anything to the game” is rather irrelevant here.
Figured I'd chime in since me and my party Wizard already went over this spell at length. We decided that only direct prolonged contact between the Illusion and an enemy would allow the enemy a roll to disbelieve (in the case of Illusory Creature).
Generally speaking I don't believe the contact of your average strike lasts long enough for an entity to go, "Hey, that's illegal."
Now if they grapple the creature or vise versa, then that is a different story.
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If the damage doesn't correspond to the image of the monster—for example, if an illusory Large dragon deals only 5 damage—the GM might allow the target to attempt a Perception check to disbelieve the spell as a free action.
This implies that in most circumstances someone attacked by an illusion does not get a free disbelieve check.
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If the damage doesn't correspond to the image of the monster—for example, if an illusory Large dragon deals only 5 damage—the GM might allow the target to attempt a Perception check to disbelieve the spell as a free action.This implies that in most circumstances someone attacked by an illusion does not get a free disbelieve check.
But it’s the only case we have so far of an illusion attacking (not counting outright attacking spells like Phantasmal Killer where the save is upfront).
That and we lack any concrete way stating Illusion “Touching” (Big T) is only one way.
Just being hit by the illusion wouldn’t provoke a free save, but if you try to grapple or shove the illusion, you would.
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It seems like you should get a save if the attack is incapable of hitting as hard as expected, which is probably going to be the case fairly often, as people like to oversell threat levels with illusions, rather than undersell them. Especially since the damage is nonlethal.