All about Summoning

[Atalius]

Bard trying to learn more about Summoning, Get in particular, I have heard it is viable early levels but then gets underwhelming from the mid point onwards. I'm here to ask all of you ladies and gentlemen, what are some good creatures to summon in combat. I'm looking for some good forms that can provide either battlefield control, or support via healing, or anything else that could overall help our group of 3 martials and a caster.

[Atalius]

Get* = Fey

[Laran]

Here is a start

Zenith guides - Kicking A## ...

[Siro]

Laran wrote:

Here is a start

Zenith guides - Kicking A## ...

You beat me to it. Also here is a mini discussion on Fey summoning [url=https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42o1l?Summon-Fey-spell-options-considered#1 [/url]

Also even a Level 1 version (even if the summoned creature would be no threat) can still provide flanking for the martials.

[Atalius]

Thanks guys. Are there any guides on Summon Entity? Is it viable?

[Laran]

Out of curiosity - how did the summoning get around the requirement that the creatures be Common to be able to summon a Gimmerling? Heightening the spell does not appear to change the rarity restriction

Summon Fey
You conjure a fey to fight for you. This works like summon
animal, except you summon a common creature that has the
fey trait and whose level is –1.
Heightened As summon animal

Summon Animal
You conjure an animal to fight for you. You summon a common
creature that has the animal trait and whose level is –1.
Heightening the spell increases the maximum level of creature
you can summon.

[Salamileg]

I forget which book it is, but either the GMG or Bestiary 2 will have monsters specifically intended to fill in the holes in the summoning spells levels. So the spells will probably get better when those come out.

[Atalius]

This gentlemen's guide is interesting. His analysis on the spells seems to be quite off. Many spells which are extremely good he doesn't consider extremely good, there are lots of examples, but one is Synesthesia. And be considers summoning spells to be pretty garbage.

[Vlorax]

Atalius wrote:

This gentlemen's guide is interesting. His analysis on the spells seems to be quite off. Many spells which are extremely good he doesn't consider extremely good, there are lots of examples, but one is Synesthesia. And be considers summoning spells to be pretty garbage.

Yea I've checked it out some and def disagree with him on certain rankings.

[Atalius]

We need the Xenocrat to write one of these.

[Paradozen]

I have a thread on summoning tactics from a while ago here. My in-play experience with summon fey has been pretty good, but we are still second level so it's pretty much just that mites do solid enough damage to be worth the actions.

[Laran]

It is a pair of truisms that all guides start somewhere and all guides reflect the author's view (including non-negative sense of the term bias). In my opinion, a guide should inform readers about ideas they may not have thought about. If the author evaluates something different from you, check to see why because you might look at something differently.

When you say that many spells are extremely good, do you mean they are extremely good across many circumstances or in a narrow niche? That is the quandary with any guide. Guides try to boil down impressions into a broad spectrum evaluation and include useful nuggets. It is assumed that pretty much every spell written would have a good use in a particular situation but may not be that useful across many scenarios. A unitary rating will always be problematic especially if you do not differentiate between value as a spell slot, a wand, a scroll.

Finally, you can write mini-guides about even something like why summoning is good. Guides should allow people to read different opinions and then try to integrate with their own view. Start with something like the 1st level Arcane spells and how you would rate them

One thing to keep in mind when you read the summoning threads is that you are limited to COMMON creatures only

[Laran]

Paradozen wrote:

I have a thread on summoning tactics from a while ago here. My in-play experience with summon fey has been pretty good, but we are still second level so it's pretty much just that mites do solid enough damage to be worth the actions.

People tend to summon creatures for three purposes which need to be evaluated based upon the opportunity cost of using an action every round (no longer are they fire and forget)

1) Add some damage
2) Use a spell
3) Flank body (not buddy)

1- This stops very quickly by 4th or 5th level when the differential in level expands. Starting at those levels, the likelihood of hitting drops off dramatically and the value of a couple points of damage every now and then is much less

2- There are some spells (e.g. color spray) that are great from low level summons but tend to be limited in the mid to higher levels (thus, question is of the relative value not just of the action but using the spell slot instead of feeding in another fireball (for example)

3- Flank Body because as mentioned above, they will not hit very often. Thus the value is in creating a stationary flank post that you hope lives. Also if you are trying to block movement, they can be useful

Thinking about that, how would you rate the summoning spells with a single rating? Fantastic - everyone should take it every level? Good- You might be able to find a spell that could be useful and be worth it? Bad - Because it quickly loses combat usefulness?