Ability Score Replacers and Untyped Bonuses

[Falkyron]

Let's say your character treats one ability score as another for a purpose (such as the lunar oracle's prophetic armor ability), replacing Dexterity with Charisma for AC and Reflex saves.
Let's speculate that later on the character gains an untyped bonus to either AC or saves equal to his Charisma modifier.

I'm under the impression that one is your base ability score and the other is a bonus, so they stack. Is this correct?

[Wonderstell]

They wouldn't stack.

Your 'base ability score' is a bonus without a type. An untyped bonus.

[blahpers]

You can't apply the bonus from a single attribute to the same roll more than once.

Prophetic Armor lets you apply your Charisma bonus to AC instead of your Dexterity bonus. Any other ability that lets you apply your Charisma bonus to AC would be redundant--it'd overlap but not stack. Ditto for saving throws and everything else.

It's a hilarious retcon of the concept of "typed bonus", but it's where PDT landed.

[MrCharisma]

I thought you could still as long as they're different bonuses.

Eg. Scaled Fist Monk adds CHA to AC as an UNTYPED bonus. Paladin Smite adds CHA to AC as a DEFLECTION bonus. Thus a multiclassed character could get double CHA to AC during a Smite.

Is that correct?

[willuwontu]

There's a whole FAQ about this.

PF1 FAQ: CRB wrote:

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?

No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

[blahpers]

Ah, right. MrCharisma is spot on then. Still hilarious.

[Falkyron]

blahpers wrote:

Ah, right. MrCharisma is spot on then. Still hilarious.

I guess the question is "Is your increase to a save sourced from your base ability score, such as your Wisdom mod's natural increase to Will saving throws, considered an 'untyped bonus' for stacking purposes?"

[MrCharisma]

Falkyron wrote:

blahpers wrote:

Ah, right. MrCharisma is spot on then. Still hilarious.

I guess the question is "Is your increase to a save sourced from your base ability score, such as your Wisdom mod's natural increase to Will saving throws, considered an 'untyped bonus' for stacking purposes?"

I believe it does, but "an untyped bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier" and "an untyped bonus equal to your Charisma modifier" would stack. It's only if you have two untyped bonuses equal to the same ability score that you have problems. So a Swashbuckler's "Charmed Life" ability doesn't stack with a Paladin's "Divine Grace", but either one would stack with the usual saves.

[Derklord]

Falkyron wrote:

I guess the question is "Is your increase to a save sourced from your base ability score, such as your Wisdom mod's natural increase to Will saving throws, considered an 'untyped bonus' for stacking purposes?"

"Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores." CRB pg. 11

So yeah, basically, everything that gets added to something is a bonus.

What the FAQ does, by the way, is set it so that the ability score is always considered the source (and not, say, the class feature that allows it). From that point on, the regular stacking rules take over.