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My first comment is the spells per day, it seems really strange to me that Oracle has no option to get 4 spells per level per day as a spellcasting heavy class. I get divine sorcerer is there for that, but I definitely thought Oracle would still get that extra spell slot a day compared to cleric, especially when...
It has no "divine font" option, even for Life Oracle. So the life oracle has the same number of spontaneous spells as the prepared cleric, except it doesn't get all those sweet bonus heal spells. I'm not sure if this is necessarily bad, but it definitely seems odd to me that a life oracle might be a worse healer than a charisma cleric.
The whole focus point pool thing seems strange to me too. I'm totally on board for how their revelation stuff works for their own mechanics, but I think it heavily discourages multiclassing for any class that has cool focus powers. I don't think an oracle/monk picking up ki rush or ki strike should be fueling these powers off of their curse instead of focus points. Just let oracle's thing be independent and isolated, but any ability that would give you a focus pool does so and just doesn't interact with the oracle curse at all.
Finally, if you just decide you don't really want to use revelation powers, you can have an oracle never experience any stage of their curse, which seems...strange. There should probably be at least a lesser minor curse effect that an oracle always has or their curse stages should be tied to casting any divine spells in general as well. I mean, their divine magic is what they get in exchange for a curse, being able to go from 1-20 spamming diving magic without ever experiencing their curse seems a little strange. Maybe they always start with minor curse and need to expend some of their magical build up, their curse can go down too? Or it can go the other way, whenever they exhaust all their spell slots of some scaling level, they push their curse stage up.
Examples:
Starting at 1st level, you begin each day suffering from the effects of your minor curse. However, if you ever expend a number of spell slots equal to half of your total spell slots, you no longer suffer from your minor curse/your curse stage goes down by 1 unless you cast a revelation spell as normal.
Or the opposite design direction
If you ever expend a number of spell slots equal to half of your total spell slots and are not currently suffering from the effects of your minor curse, your curse stage increased by 1 to Minor Curse.
I think the idea is that the revelation spells are meant to be equivalent to divine font. If you compare the oracle to the cloistered cleric, they are very closely balanced against each other except for those two points. The oracle gets slightly more focus spells per fight, and two focus spells at the point of entry. The cleric replaces that with maxed heal spells and a single focus point and spell.
I don't know that this is a good trade, especially given the drawbacks of the curse, but I think that's how it is meant to work out.
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Yeah, due to how recovering Focus works (even for Oracles), they don't actually wind up with more Focus Spells per fight, they wind up with one extra per day and a mixed penalty/bonus in the form of their Curse...but IMO Curses are more penalty than bonus.
Giving up 2-5 extra max level Heal (or Harm) spells for one Focus Spell per day and a Curse is thus really bad. They do also net a few Proficiency ups (or extra HP for Life) from Mystery, but it's still a pretty bad trade, especially since Wis is generally a better stat than Cha and casting with it is thus an advantage.
Yeah, due to how recovering Focus works (even for Oracles), they don't actually wind up with more Focus Spells per fight, they wind up with one extra per day and a mixed penalty/bonus in the form of their Curse...but IMO Curses are more penalty than bonus.
Giving up 2-5 extra max level Heal (or Harm) spells for one Focus Spell per day and a Curse is thus really bad. They do also net a few Proficiency ups (or extra HP for Life) from Mystery, but it's still a pretty bad trade, especially since Wis is generally a better stat than Cha and casting with it is thus an advantage.
The mystery benefit (and getting Resolve two levels earlier) feels like it is more making up for the cleric gets expert fortitude and perception 6 levels earlier. I suppose there are certain levels where the Oracle could come out ahead but it doesn't feel very pronounced.
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The Cleric gets plent of focus points too! Got all their spells per day + up to 3 focus + Divine Font. All of them can be used liberally without gimping yourself.
Yeah, due to how recovering Focus works (even for Oracles), they don't actually wind up with more Focus Spells per fight, they wind up with one extra per day and a mixed penalty/bonus in the form of their Curse...but IMO Curses are more penalty than bonus.
Giving up 2-5 extra max level Heal (or Harm) spells for one Focus Spell per day and a Curse is thus really bad. They do also net a few Proficiency ups (or extra HP for Life) from Mystery, but it's still a pretty bad trade, especially since Wis is generally a better stat than Cha and casting with it is thus an advantage.
I had definitely misread the oracle's curse, and didn't realize you were stuck at minor curse once you used the power once, but it is only one extra focus spell per day until level 11, when it becomes, 1 extra focus spell every encounter, and then 2 extra focus powers per encounter at level 17.
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I had definitely misread the oracle's curse, and didn't realize you were stuck at minor curse once you used the power once, but it is only one extra focus spell per day until level 11, when it becomes, 1 extra focus spell every encounter, and then 2 extra focus powers per encounter at level 17.
It's also worth noting that at level 12, Clerics and most other people with Focus Points can also hit two Focus Spells per encounter. Which makes the Oracle getting it a whole one level earlier a not particularly impressive benefit.
The whole focus point pool thing seems strange to me too. I'm totally on board for how their revelation stuff works for their own mechanics, but I think it heavily discourages multiclassing for any class that has cool focus powers. I don't think an oracle/monk picking up ki rush or ki strike should be fueling these powers off of their curse instead of focus points. Just let oracle's thing be independent and isolated, but any ability that would give you a focus pool does so and just doesn't interact with the oracle curse at all.
and here i want to really play a fire mystery oracle multiclassed into monk, i get to be on fire while punching people.
Yeah, due to how recovering Focus works (even for Oracles), they don't actually wind up with more Focus Spells per fight, they wind up with one extra per day and a mixed penalty/bonus in the form of their Curse...but IMO Curses are more penalty than bonus.
i mean they do get additional casts per day at 6 and 10 if they're focusing on focuses. the revelation spell feats give casts per day that don't advance the curse. so that's 3 additional casts per day on top of a focus spell at level 10, which becomes 1 higher at 11 for 5 casts potentially in 1 fight.
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i mean they do get additional casts per day at 6 and 10 if they're focusing on focuses. the revelation spell feats give casts per day that don't advance the curse. so that's 3 additional casts per day on top of a focus spell at level 10, which becomes 1 higher at 11 for 5 casts potentially in 1 fight.
True, but that's several Feats of investment to get something that's still not as good as what Clerics just get by default.
Unless it's an effort to provide Anathema with more 'narrative/mechanical weight'?
Well the cleric has to spend feats to recover multiple focus, as well. The Oracle is ahead by default and stays ahead if both classes spend feats.
But being able to bust the focus spells out slightly more frequently doesn't seem like it makes up for Divine Font.
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Unless it's an effort to provide Anathema with more 'narrative/mechanical weight'?
Ugh.
But also, why would using your class abilities be anathema? Why would that be a good thing?
Unless it's an effort to provide Anathema with more 'narrative/mechanical weight'?Ugh.
But also, why would using your class abilities be anathema? Why would that be a good thing?
I was going more that 'Clerics/Champions/Druids get Anathema, but don't have the debilitating drawbacks that Oracles get for their Curses.
I don't see it as being a 'good thing', but as some effort to present 'balance'
It's also presented that way by some of the team by the idea that it's some sort of 'divine congressional body' that the user is attempting to 'mediate' on a daily basis, versus 'plugging into power well above their paygrade'.
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You know somehow I doubt that Anathema is nearly as debilitating than any of these curses.
You know somehow I doubt that Anathema is nearly as debilitating than any of these curses.
I don't believe so, either.
Anathema is more of a thing for home games, it's hard to beat on them too much in organized play.
Curses, though... I see them getting hammered a lot.
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After a discussion with another playtester, I think it would be cool if oracle's had unique divine fonts based on their mystery.
Life has a divine font for heal
Flames has a divine font for burning hands
Some kind of bones oracle would have harm
Shadow type oracle could have grim tendrils
Battle could lose divine font for their melee focus or have some kind of new spell like divine favor or something
It's also a way to tie staging up a curse. If you use a certain number of your free divine font spells, your curse goes up or something similar
I did really want to see a second class with Divine Font and was hoping it would be the Oracle. It feels very stifling to have only one class be the premier "healer" archetype in this system, especially with how valued in-combat healing is now.
I have similar feelings about the sole high AC class, the Champion. I was hoping the Swashbuckler would fill a similar role as an AC tank with the flavor of light armor, parrying dagger and dexterity instead of full plate, heavy shield and self-healing.
As far as I can tell, the only classes who are alone in their party role of healer and tank are cleric and champion. Maybe try to have some of the new classes fill that role a bit too?
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The font thing is tricky because so few spells heighten as well and are as flexible as heal/harm in PF2, where it feels worthwhile to be casting them at higher levels. Burning hands, for example, doesn’t really keep up all that well, and any future Oracles will have to have a spell that heightens too, which might limit which mysteries are feasible.
Personally, I want to see the Oracle’s balance dialed in around focus powers and that being their ultimate niche
While not the thread for it, I too would like more spells that function like heal or magic missile where I can flexibly choose to use more actions casting it to improve the effects.
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The font thing is tricky because so few spells heighten as well and are as flexible as heal/harm in PF2, where it feels worthwhile to be casting them at higher levels. Burning hands, for example, doesn’t really keep up all that well, and any future Oracles will have to have a spell that heightens too, which might limit which mysteries are feasible.
Personally, I want to see the Oracle’s balance dialed in around focus powers and that being their ultimate niche
Yeah, the spells I was suggesting were just examples from the Core book. If they went this route, they could add more spells in Gods and Magic or the ACG itself that worked for these divine fonts.
I don't want the Oracle to have a divine font, I want them to use more focus spells.
But the way the curse escalates at the moment, they only get two at low levels the first fight they use them, and must use two that fight or get no benefit. I'm okay with less spells per day, no font, if they really are about focus spells, but the revelations and curses don't actually work that way, yet. I'm even on board with having the minor curse all the time, if there was some way to design the mechanic so the oracle was one step ahead of the curve. Then all that would be needed would be every oracle having focus spells that are useful most fights. The flame and battle do an okay job of that at the moment, the life oracle's delay affliction is awful, and the healing domain spell only boosts other spells that the oracle has less of. But I can see a world where a low level oracle gets to like incendiary aura and fire ray every fight, and that's cool. That would take them from fairly weak at low levels to a bit strong, but they still have less spell slots so it evens out.
I dunno, I love the idea with this oracle, but the fine details of how it works aren't there. Design them to be a focus mechanic cheat by making sure they actually get something for the cost of curses, and the focus spells they have access too are actually something that comes up every or almost every encounter. Delay Affliction is an awful focus spell, great effect maybe, but terrible as a focus spell.
With Advanced Revelation and Greater Revelation, you can effectively get 2 more spells/day at your highest spell level. The question is, of course, are Revelation Spells as good as an equivalent level slot-based spell, and are 2 more of them worth as much as an extra spell of each level?