So Im playing my first campaign of Pathfinder but I've never been very good at balancing and optimizing my character builds. I would appreciate some help in refining my character so I can actually be good at something. I'm kind of trying to balance features that make my character well rounded between fighter, spell-caster and rouge but I feel like I've just made myself not particularly good at anything.
Im playing a Kitsune as a Fractured Mind/Phantom Blade Spiritualist and have the following stats.
Stats:
LVL: 8 Spiritualist
Abilities:
STR: 12(+1)
DEX: 14(+2)
CON: 13(+1) Increase at lvl 20
INT: 11(+0) Increase at lvl 12
WIS: 13(+1) Increase at lvl 16
CHA: 15(+2)
I would mostly like help in choosing feats, spells and skill ranks for current and later levels but any other advice will also be helpful. Were playing a war campaign so combat is the biggest thing but I still want to be utilitarian. I tend to play characters with a lot of powerful gear and try to use mundane equipment creatively thus I want to have some ability to craft them. I've also gotten permission from my DM to build a wizard spell book that I can use to copy scrolls and cast spells from.
I've considered taking the following feats at later levels: Craft Magic Arms and Armour, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Ambush Awareness, Deflect Arrows, Bleeding Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strikes), Dazzling Display, Hamatulatsu, and Grasping Tail.
I want to have utility spells with a few reliable offensive spells. Preferably two ranged and one touch.
For skill ranks I'm trying to focus on spell based and roguish skills.
I thank everyone in advance for any advice I receive.
Okay, so would your GM allow you to make a complete overhaul of your character? Because there are a lot of things that could be better. For starters you have like one offensive spell and almost negative damage per round. You'd also technically not benefit from your Emotional Power ability since you don't have a phantom with any Emotional Focus to base the class feature on. A strict GM may say that the two archetypes are incompatible.
I think the main problem with your character is that you're trying to do everything by yourself, resulting in a "jack of no trades, master of none" type of build.
Ability Scores:
Quote:
STR: 12
DEX: 14
CON: 13
INT: 11
WIS: 13
CHA: 15
Have you rolled for stats? Because if not, then I strongly urge you to consider changing them. If you really want to use a Katana, you should not even entertain the idea of having a +1 modifier in your main attribute (strength).
If this is not possible, could you explain which attributes you've placed your Ability Score Increases in?
There's room for improvement, so let's start from the top.
Magical Tail and Realistic Likeness would not work together since they both use magic to give you another appearance. Skip Magical Tail.
EWP (Katana) can be bought for 1500 GP via a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone, which can be implanted to be kept safe. Skip EWP.
Improved Initiative is a good placeholder feat, but you have more important feats to take. Skip it.
Agile Maneuvers would give you +1 to combat maneuvers. But you don't have any combat maneuver feats at all. Skip it.
As for your skills, you've definitely spread them too thin. Rule of thumb, don't invest in non-class skills and fully max at least two skills you want to be proficient with. If you want a specific skill, then add it to your list with a character trait.
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It is possible salvage this character, but that requires a lot of downtime and retraining. If that isn't possible, maybe entertain the idea of bringing in your long lost twin to replace your character.
You'd also technically not benefit from your Emotional Power ability since you don't have a phantom with any Emotional Focus to base the class feature on.
Missed this when reading up on it. Thank you for pointing it out.
Wonderstell wrote:
Have you rolled for stats? Because if not, then I strongly urge you to consider changing them. If you really want to use a Katana, you should not even entertain the idea of having a +1 modifier in your main attribute (strength).
If this is not possible, could you explain which attributes you've placed your Ability Score Increases in?
We did a 15 point by system. And you mean I should or shouldn't bother with +1 STR mod? You have me confused here since it uses STR as a melee weapon.
Abilities: (Modifiers) Racial adjustmentsIncrease
STR: 14-2=12(+1)
DEX: 12+2=14(+2)
CON: 13(+1) Increase at lvl 20
INT: 11(+0) Increase at lvl 12
WIS: 13(+1) Increase at lvl 16
CHA: 11+2+2=15(+2) Increased at lvl 4 & lvl 8
Wonderstell wrote:
Magical Tail and Realistic Likeness would not work together since they both use magic to give you another appearance.
...
EWP (Katana) can be bought for 1500 GP via a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone, which can be implanted to be kept safe. Skip EWP.
How is it exactly that Magical Tail and Realistic Likeness don't work together? Just out of curiosity?
Isn't implanting Ioun Stones really risky. It looks like a lot more trouble to do instead of just taking EWP.
Bear in mind that without a little GM assistance, Fractured Mind's change in ability scores for spellcasting does not change Phantom Blade's Ectoplasmic Pool using Wisdom to Charisma.
To implant an ioun stone, you need to make a DC 20 Charisma check (which you can gain a +5 bonus to if you fast for 8 days) followed by a DC 25 Heal check (with a -5 if you are doing the surgery yourself) and a DC 25 Knowledge(Arcana) check. If you fail the Charisma Check, you just have to start over. If the Heal or Arcana checks fail, you take 1d6 points of Con damage (which heals normally) and you can start over. If you succeed you take 1d2 points of Con damage (which heals normally) and the ioun stone is basically not targetable. Since you are essentially taking bed rest when you are fasting you heal up 1 point of con damage every day, so by the time your 8 day fast is finished, you have no con damage remaining.
So, if you have a charisma score of 1 and fast for 8 days each attempt, you will eventually succeed but it just may take 20 tries (because you need to roll a 20). Since you have a charisma of probably 16 by the time you attempt to implant the stone, and go the full 8 days of fasting, you will need a 12 on the die. So a 45% chance of success. Then you pay someone(or party member) to do the Heal check and K(Arcana). An Experienced Doctor will have 5 ranks in Heal with Skill Focus(Heal) (and probably ability score bonus of 1-2) so should have at least a +12-14 bonus to heal. The entry for a hireling doctor also says "has additional ranks in appropriate skills" so you could probably argue is decent at K(Arcana), say +10. This is at the cost of 5-10gp a day. You really only need them for an hour to perform the surgery, but call it a day. Throw in some masterwork tools and other bonuses and you have a good chance of success. Increasing the cost by 100-200gp when you are already paying 1500 gp isn't that big of a deal if it increases your chance of success by a significant margin.
As for the risk vs reward... well you are getting a feat for the cost of 1500gp, so once you have more gold then feats, its well worth it. Once you have enough money, it might even be better to get a full normal version of the Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone and slot it into a wayfinder/other device for two feats, proficiency and weapon focus.
As for the risk vs reward... well you are getting a feat for the cost of 1500gp, so once you have more gold then feats, its well worth it. Once you have enough money, it might even be better to get a full normal version of the Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone and slot it into a wayfinder/other device for two feats, proficiency and weapon focus.
That makes a fair amount of sense. Makes that DC 25 Heal check look less intimidating. Mentioning Wayfinders has anyone ever thought of implanting a multi-stone wayfinder? Seems like a really cool idea to me.
Well first, you implant the ioun stone, not the wayfinder.
Implanting a wayfinder might lead to more serious health problems.
You also only get the resonant bonuses from the stone being in a wayfinder (or other similar device), and typically only normal full stones (at least for PFS).
How is it exactly that Magical Tail and Realistic Likeness don't work together? Just out of curiosity?
Basically, both Disguise Self and Realistic Likeness creates a disguise as part of using the abilities. If you've used Realistic Likeness to transform into a specific individual, then you wouldn't benefit from Disguise Self since the glamer is on top of your previous disguise.
CloningCody wrote:
Isn't implanting Ioun Stones really risky. It looks like a lot more trouble to do instead of just taking EWP.
You can also keep it safe in a Wayfinder for 500 gp, but implanting is the commonly used way to avoid theft.
CloningCody wrote:
We did a 15 point by system. And you mean I should or shouldn't bother with +1 STR mod? You have me confused here since it uses STR as a melee weapon.
As a Phantom Blade, your most important attribute is the one you're using to attack, followed by your casting stat, then constitution. Having a +1 STR at lv 8 means you're probably 4-5 behind on your attack bonus compared to a normal build.
CloningCody wrote:
Abilities: (Modifiers) Racial adjustmentsIncrease
STR: 14-2=12(+1)
DEX: 12+2=14(+2)
CON: 13(+1) Increase at lvl 20
INT: 11(+0) Increase at lvl 12
WIS: 13(+1) Increase at lvl 16
CHA: 11+2+2=15(+2) Increased at lvl 4 & lvl 8
Buying against your racial penalty in strength and making it your main attribute is not recommended, especially with a low PB like 15. You're very punished for not going for a dexterity build, which is still possible with a Katana if you buy the Effortless Lace.
15 PB (4th in Dex and 8th in Con)
Str 8, Dex 17+1, Con 13+1, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
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Alternatively you could let your Phantom Blade take the form of a Starknife and take the Divine Fighting Technique to use Charisma for Attack/Damage, which would help with your PB.
15 PB (4th in Cha and 8th in Con)
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 13+1, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 17+1
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Or skip the Fractured Mind archetype (since it probably doesn't stack with Phantom Blade), dump charisma and use character traits to use Wisdom for Bluff/Diplomacy.
15 PB (4th in Dex and 8th in Wis)
Str 8, Dex 17+1, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15+1, Cha 9
Well first, you implant the ioun stone, not the wayfinder.
I know that. But think if you could somehow implant a Wayfinder! But besides that I'm getting off topic.
Using an ioun stone isn't a bad idea and implanting it is even better, if I can arrange for it. But my main concern with that is my whole group is somewhat new to Pathfinder including my GM and I have had some difficulty convincing him to let me do things with equipment and magic gear. He isn't really familiar with many things and as such has been wary at best with some of my unorthodox ideas. I will definitely try though.
On another note Firebug....have any ideas for which feats would be more beneficial than the ones that Wonderstell has suggested skipping?
Basically, both Disguise Self and Realistic Likeness creates a disguise as part of using the abilities. If you've used Realistic Likeness to transform into a specific individual, then you wouldn't benefit from Disguise Self since the glamer is on top of your previous disguise.
Ok I see what you mean. I have Magical Tail as my favoured class bonus from the Kitsune race since there wasn't one for Spiritualist I took the universal which is "Gain 1/6 of a new Magical Tail feat. Any kitsune character can choose this bonus upon gaining a level in her favored class." I pretty much have it because there wasn't anything else. I have it twice BTW. One from 1st lvl and another at 7th. Also I have't chosen my lvl 8 feat yet...should have mentioned that in the first place.
Wonderstell wrote:
Buying against your racial penalty in strength and making it your main attribute is not recommended, especially with a low PB like 15. You're very punished for not going for a dexterity build, which is still possible with a Katana if you buy the Effortless Lace.
15 PB (4th in Dex and 8th in Con)
Str 8, Dex 17+1, Con 13+1, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
By the looks of it this is probably my best bet for me since I was thinking of it in the first place and I could definitely benefit from it.
Wonderstell wrote:
Alternatively you could let your Phantom Blade take the form of a Starknife and take the Divine Fighting Technique to use Charisma for Attack/Damage, which would help with your PB.
I haven't been able to find anything for that. What part of the Divine Fighting Technique are you looking at?
Wonderstell wrote:
Or skip the Fractured Mind archetype (since it probably doesn't stack with Phantom Blade), dump charisma and use character traits to use Wisdom for Bluff/Diplomacy.
For this I'm mechanically stuck with Fractured Mind because of how I wrote my character backstory and stuff. But I could probably convince my DM to let me do some stuff to change out of Phantom Blade if there will ever be any benefit to it.
My Phantom Blade mostly uses Stricken Heart as his primary combat ability, and its a lot better when you are using a high crit range weapon, so I would vote against Starknife. Staggered for 1 minute no save is much better than 1 round. In my particular case, I am using a Cutlass because it is at least a little boat themed (the character serves Charon) and is an 18-20 crit range.
Though lately its mostly been buffing Haste/etc for the party or using Possession... <AP reference redacted>
AP redacted:
The AP in question is Hell's Vengeance, and the GM allowed one of the boons to allow the character to count as a demon for feats... specifically the Demonic Possession->Improved Possession line. Unfortunately, it means I need a +6/+6 Cha/Wisdom headband to even come close to those ability score requirements.
I went more of a Critical route, and Evangelist at 8(because Fiendish Obedience instead of Deific). I also went Eldritch Heritage because at the time I was under the impression that the Arcane Bloodline would get me Shocking Grasp eventually. It doesn't anymore. However, having the familiar into improved familiar (for a Cacodaemon for souls to power Charon's Evangelist 2 boon and for fueling craft wonderous item) was very useful. A Black Blade is jealous of you having a familiar, but its not clear if a Phantom Blade inherits that or only what the archetype specifically says it does.
I used the bonus feats from Phantom Blade for Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Critical Focus and (after retraining) Staggering Critical since the bonus feats count your Spiritualist level as your BAB and as Fighter levels for feat prereqs. My regular feats are tied up in the bloodline/familiar/fiendish obedience/possession feats.
If I was to rebuild the character without the Charon influence, I would look into something like Disarming Strike/Tripping Strike in addition to a Critical type feat. Basically, go ahead and go for one of the maneuvers since you should be threating often enough and confirming at a higher number which is then used for the maneuver (its not a separate roll for the maneuver). Perhaps a Spiral Rapier instead of a Katana. It would be lower damage, but give you a bonus to disarm and the possibility of +1 shield bonus to AC if you haven't cast Shield yet. My Spiritualist was a Str based character though so didn't need as much feat support. I have noticed that not having Spell Focus/Spell Penetration hurts a bit at higher level play. My Spiritualist is a level behind (because of Evangelist) in casting and doesn't have very focused casting stats. I'm filling that gap with gold, but its still annoying.
For spell suggestions, I would recommend taking Virtue as one of your 0th level spells but probably not for the obvious reason. Its a touch spell (and not restricted to allies) meaning you can spell strike with it. Sure, the opponent gains 1 temp HP but you get an extra attack which should do more damage anyway. I took Chill Touch as a 1st level spell and Cure/Inflict Light Wounds just to have options(and that one of the party was only healed by negative energy and we don't have a dedicated healer). Being able to full round an enemy, take a 5' step away and heal someone has been useful. Chill Touch because its versatile. I like Purge Spirit in 2nd as well, but that's more Charon thematics. I would suggest that you retrain Mage Armor to something else, as a Phantom Blade is proficient in Medium armor and it doesn't interfere with psychic spellcasting/etc. You can even go with something like Armor Expert(or comfort enchant) + Mithral Breastplate and you have no armor check penalty or speed reduction. This incidentally means that if you weren't proficient, you would still take no penalties for non-proficiency since the ACP is 0. If you take a second trait(Sargavan Guard) and Comfort you can even wear Mithral Full Plate without proficiency at no penalty.
Accuracy is an issue, since you are lower BAB then a fighter-type and you take a -2 to attack rolls when using spell combat. However, using your Ectoplasmic Pool to have all of your attacks for a round resolve vs Touch AC is huge. This is actually an argument against taking Power Attack/Piranha Strike, since your attacks are vs Touch when they really matter, you can't benefit from those feats at the same time as attacking touch.
Alternatively you could let your Phantom Blade take the form of a Starknife and take the Divine Fighting Technique to use Charisma for Attack/Damage, which would help with your PB.
I haven't been able to find anything for that. What part of the Divine Fighting Technique are you looking at?
Wonderstell is referring to this:
Divine Fighting Technique: Desna's Shooting Star: Initial Benefit: You can add your Charisma bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls when wielding a starknife. If you do so, you don’t modify attack rolls and damage rolls with your starknife with your Strength modifier, your Dexterity modifier (if you have Weapon Finesse), or any other ability score (if you have an ability that allows you to modify attack rolls and damage rolls with that ability score).
Ok I see what you mean. I have Magical Tail as my favoured class bonus from the Kitsune race since there wasn't one for Spiritualist I took the universal which is "Gain 1/6 of a new Magical Tail feat. Any kitsune character can choose this bonus upon gaining a level in her favored class." I pretty much have it because there wasn't anything else. I have it twice BTW. One from 1st lvl and another at 7th. Also I have't chosen my lvl 8 feat yet...should have mentioned that in the first place.
Oh yeah that makes a lot of sense. But you do round down in Pathfinder, so getting "1/6" of a feat means you have to take the FCB bonus six times before you get the feat the first time. So you'd get the first one at lv 6, not lv 1.
CloningCody wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Alternatively you could let your Phantom Blade take the form of a Starknife and take the Divine Fighting Technique to use Charisma for Attack/Damage, which would help with your PB.
I haven't been able to find anything for that. What part of the Divine Fighting Technique are you looking at?
Firebug got me covered. Worshiping Desna means you have to be one step within Chaotic Good, but adding Charisma in place of strength means you'd not suffer from the strength penalty on your damage rolls. It's a pretty easy way to make all your important stuff based on one attribute, although your critical potential would suffer.
Dexterity-based and buying the Effortless Lace is probably closer to your original character concept though, so you might want to stick with that.
CloningCody wrote:
For this I'm mechanically stuck with Fractured Mind because of how I wrote my character backstory and stuff. But I could probably convince my DM to let me do some stuff to change out of Phantom Blade if there will ever be any benefit to it.
Exciter is another archetype that makes a pretty mean Cha/Dex build. Stacks with Fractured Mind and keeps the Bonded Manifestation ability which starts to get pretty good at lv 8.
What do you guys think about the feats I suggested originally?
CloningCody wrote:
I've considered taking the following feats at later levels: Craft Magic Arms and Armour, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Ambush Awareness, Deflect Arrows, Bleeding Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strikes), Dazzling Display, Hamatulatsu, and Grasping Tail
Is there any promise in them? I'm almost guaranteed to take Craft Arms and Armour as there is a lot of custom gear I want to make but besides that I don't think I have a solid grasp of what I would want. There are too many options that I start to get lost in it all and never really make good combinations. Firebug said he used these which don't look all to bad. If I use the Ioun stone with resonance then I could skip out on Weapon Focus.
Firebug wrote:
I used the bonus feats from Phantom Blade for Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Critical Focus and (after retraining) Staggering Critical since the bonus feats count your Spiritualist level as your BAB and as Fighter levels for feat prereqs.
.....
I have noticed that not having Spell Focus/Spell Penetration hurts a bit at higher level play.
Keep in mind the one thing I'm really good at is custom items so with my armour my AC is jacked and I won't need any assistance for that and my Katana has bonuses for sundering and resisting disarm.
Divine Fighting Technique is a combat feat, so you can slot that in anywhere if you wanted to go Starknife.
If you wanted to go more the disarm/critical build I was suggesting, something like the following could work, though you probably want to fit in Weapon Finesse somewhere. I would suggest probably instead of Realistic Likeness since you are getting Disguise Self at some point anyway. If you are really into disguise, Realistic Likeness is likely only granting you the ability to put on a disguise as an action instead of 10-30 minutes that doesn't have a duration or can be disbelieved. Its good, but if you really need it up 24/7 get a Hat of Disguise. I am a big fan of using feats on things that gold can't replicate.
3)Dirty Fighting (to ignore Int 13/Combat Expertise requirements on Imp Disarm/Disarming Strike)
3B) Exotic Prof-> Weapon Focus -> Disarming Strike at 9*
5) Improved Disarm
8B) Improved Critical (so you don't have to keep spending Ecto Pool on Keen)
9) Combat Reflexes (if you are getting this I suggest the following)
11) Weapon Trick (for Stylish Riposte)
13) Critical Focus
13B) Staggering Critical
15) Open
17) Accursed Critical
18B) Critical Mastery
19) Open
*Assuming retraining rules are allowed, start with the weapon proficiency if you need it, retrain it to Weapon Focus once you get the Cracked Ioun Stone, and then retrain it to Disarming Strike at 9 and you have purchased the 10k version of the stone. You can do this, because retraining only checks your current level when you retrain (not the level when you gained the feat) and the bonus combat feats count your BAB as your class level.
CloningCody wrote:
Keep in mind the one thing I'm really good at is custom items so with my armour my AC is jacked and I won't need any assistance for that and my Katana has bonuses for sundering and resisting disarm.
So you don't need Mage Armor as a spell known since you are wearing armor, get a couple scrolls or a wand if you are worried about incorporeal creatures/being caught without armor. The base item (katana) has no bonus vs sundering or resisting disarm... are you using a real weapon and not your phantom blade? You can't enchant your Phantom Blade other than the temporary abilities of the class feature. And you can't use spell combat/spellstrike without your Phantom Blade.
The base item (katana) has no bonus vs sundering or resisting disarm... are you using a real weapon and not your phantom blade? You can't enchant your Phantom Blade other than the temporary abilities of the class feature. And you can't use spell combat/spellstrike without your Phantom Blade.
Im aware of both of those. My Katana is enchanted and modified for the bonuses. Just skimming your Critical Build suggestions it looks fine but I need more time to look it over. I probably won't be online for three days so I will get back to this then.
