Animal INTelligence too low for a select few


Rules Discussion


I know that some animals in RL have at least human toddler level intellect at adulthood, such as cetaceans (whales, dolphins, etc.), primates (us humans, gorillas, monkeys, etc.), parrots, corvids, and maybe more. Shouldn't those species be the exception to the general trend of -4 or lower INT mod and officially be elevated up to, like -3? Especially for the bigger whales (not present in PF2 as of now, AFAIK) and elephants, I heard they even have primitive vocal languages of their own...

P.S. At first, before this topic I was almost going to have a discussion on Animal pecking order in the form of in-game levels, but upon closer inspection, as other than the fact that marine leviathans like the megalodon seeming a bit lower than expected the general pecking order was well thought of by the dev team, so I dropped that one...

P.P.S. And don't even mention Tyrannosaurus palm directions (hint: not facing the ground IRL, their wrist joints never support that direction). Their Deinonychus art was done right, with all the fluffy feathers...

Liberty's Edge

I don’t know that it would disrupt much to house rule the Int of animals you think should be higher. It’s all a little nebulous at the low end of the Int scale, though. The Speak with Animals Spell lets you have conversations with Int -5 animals, for instance, and it’s affecting you, not the animal, which implies some level of ability for these animals to communicate anyway.

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Probably. It's arguable that some (cetaceans and maybe some great apes) should maybe even have as high as -2 or so.

That said, it gets into weird real world arguments that we don't really need to deal with, and effects little enough that I don't think it's a huge deal.

Dark Archive

I mean, in real life its kinda questionable how high standards humans have for what level of intelligence you need to have human rights :P Mostly because its a moving goalpost where whenever animal reaches it, they move it further, so now it kinda is at "Animal would need to be able to communicate with humans"(and even then any animal capable of doing so gets claims about it not reaaaaaaaally being able to do so. Like claiming they have just learned to respond in way humans rewards them or something.)

So in tabletop terms probably good idea to not think about it too much because its honestly disturbing in real life for all biology and ecology enthusiasts :P

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I can honestly see no point or benefit from this change whatsoever. It's a game, not a simulator of reality and bestiaries are game aids, not manuals of zoology.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
I can honestly see no point or benefit from this change whatsoever. It's a game, not a simulator of reality and bestiaries are game aids, not manuals of zoology.

I dunno If I'd go this far, knowing which animals are smarter allows for varying degrees of tactics and planning, and establishing a wider range of Int on Animals allows them to be used for more different things.

I don't think it's really worth the effort or arguments, but it's not like it would have no benefits whatsoever.

Liberty's Edge

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I don't think it's really worth the effort or arguments, but it's not like it would have no benefits whatsoever.

As a system-wide change, I agree, and while I probably wouldn’t even bother with it as a house rule, if it’s a problem for someone, it shouldn’t be all that difficult to fix.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Regardless of the listed INT value, any DM is free to play critters he considers more intelligent (primates, great cats, whatever) in a more cunning and intelligent fashion than, say, giant bugs. The listed INT score is only relevant when interacting with spells or abilities where INT is significant.

Dark Archive

Yeah, the wisdom is more about tactics while int is knowledge.

Like wise creature would be able to tell when they are outnumbered, but intelligent creature would be able to tell that things that shoot small metal objects to distance are dangerous because they know what they do

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Animal INTelligence too low for a select few All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.