Obviously the rules have some pretty clear examples of using Follow the Expert when Avoiding Notice or mountain climbing. But I'm curious how folks would let the tacric apply outside of those obvious examples.
For example, could your bard lead the whole party through a kick ass concert Performance? Personally I'd be inclined to let the circumstance bonus apply to the checks from the others, but probably wouldn't let them apply their level to an untrained skill. An expert could certainly help improve the performance of others, but wouldn't be able to reach you to play piano on the fly. (Well, maybe if they're legendary.)
What about social situations? There are verbal duels and influence checks that often require your whole party to take turns. Could you follow the lead of someone more adept with a skill than you, or would that basically negate wanting to hear from other members of the party?
How about if you need to sell a lie? Can you just go along with what your bard says even if you are directly questioned?
Any other interesting corner cases y'all can think of?
For example, could your bard lead the whole party through a kick ass concert Performance? Personally I'd be inclined to let the circumstance bonus apply to the checks from the others, but probably wouldn't let them apply their level to an untrained skill. An expert could certainly help improve the performance of others, but wouldn't be able to reach you to play piano on the fly. (Well, maybe if they're legendary.)
When considering how reasonable it is to apply level to an untrained skill, remember that anyone with the Untrained Improvisation general feat (and of at least 7th level) gets to do this already, along with anyone with the Pathfinder Agent Dedication (at any level). If it's reasonable for such a feat to let you figure out how to play the piano on the fly, I think it's reasonable for an expert's help to do it.
In my opinion, as long as all characters are doing the same thing, I'll apply Follow the Expert. So, it works if all characters are sneaking, telling the same lie, singing the same song or making good impression to the same person or group of person.
I won't apply it if all characters are speaking to different persons or saying very distinct things, if they are playing different instruments or climbing through different trails.
If they can imitate the expert, I apply it. If they have to make their own task, I don't.
For example, could your bard lead the whole party through a kick ass concert Performance? Personally I'd be inclined to let the circumstance bonus apply to the checks from the others, but probably wouldn't let them apply their level to an untrained skill. An expert could certainly help improve the performance of others, but wouldn't be able to reach you to play piano on the fly. (Well, maybe if they're legendary.)When considering how reasonable it is to apply level to an untrained skill, remember that anyone with the Untrained Improvisation general feat (and of at least 7th level) gets to do this already, along with anyone with the Pathfinder Agent Dedication (at any level). If it's reasonable for such a feat to let you figure out how to play the piano on the fly, I think it's reasonable for an expert's help to do it.
That's actually a useful example that helps me articulate this a little better. Follow the Expert probably shouldn't work for trained only skill uses, which those feats don't apply to either. Perform is technically an untrained activity, but that seems largely to accommodate things like acting or oration which don't require training. Perform also has the paragraph on "basic competence," though, which suggests a GM can apply a penalty if you don't meet the demands of the art form or audience. I think treating checks with instruments as trained only would be a pretty reasonable penalty. Also, Staging a Performance to Earn Income is trained only, so the line between when you can make the check and when you can't is a little blurry.
On the other hand, there are some trained only checks it might make sense for, like Cover Tracks or Crafting large amounts of very basic items. I dunno.
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That's actually a useful example that helps me articulate this a little better. Follow the Expert probably shouldn't work for trained only skill uses, which those feats don't apply to either.
The Human ancestry feat Clever Improvisor explicitly does allow you to attempt trained-only skill uses. “In addition, you can attempt skill actions that normally require you to be trained, even if you are untrained.“
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Perform isn’t broken up by kind of performance, so it’s technically the same skill use skill use to play any instrument. The expert Bard, then, should be able to sing and lead the other party members to play guitar, bass, and drums, thus rocking out.
The only issue is that Follow the Expert is an exploration tactic, so other than exploring the studio space under the leadership of cowbell virtuoso Gene Frenkle, I don’t know that it’s going to happen much.
That's actually a useful example that helps me articulate this a little better. Follow the Expert probably shouldn't work for trained only skill uses, which those feats don't apply to either.The Human ancestry feat Clever Improvisor explicitly does allow you to attempt trained-only skill uses. “In addition, you can attempt skill actions that normally require you to be trained, even if you are untrained.“
Sure, and I almost brought it up. But it doesn't really change the equation much. Humans with that feat being able to pick up instruments on the fly isn't really any crazier than being able to pick locks on the fly. That's what the feat does.
Perform isn’t broken up by kind of performance, so it’s technically the same skill use skill use to play any instrument. The expert Bard, then, should be able to sing and lead the other party members to play guitar, bass, and drums, thus rocking out.
True, but the "Basic Competence" clause on page 250 gives the GM leeway to curtail that. Personally, I might let an untrained performer be led on the cowbell, but not the tuba.
The only issue is that Follow the Expert is an exploration tactic, so other than exploring the studio space under the leadership of cowbell virtuoso Gene Frenkle, I don’t know that it’s going to happen much.
I dunno, exploration activities include everything from Make an Impression to Learning a Spell. I don't really see why exploring a bar is any less exploring than exploring a spell book or a conversation or whatever. Exploring is really just anything that isn't as zoomed in as encounters or as zoomed out as Downtime. And Follow the Expert only requires that a skill be "reoccurring." And since the the perform action specifies it is one song, it seems like playing a multi-song set-list would qualify as a reoccurring check. Your GM could qualify that as a social encounter as well, but the Exploration trait says such an action can "usually" only be used in exploration mode, so that leaves some leeway.
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True, but the "Basic Competence" clause on
page 250 gives the GM leeway to curtail that.
That section literally says “the GM might apply a penalty based on the relevant ability score.” It certainly doesn’t speak of disallowing attempts, so while a GM is free to do that, that’s more a case of GM fiat than of applying that rule.
Personally, I might let an untrained performer be led on the cowbell, but not the tuba.
You wouldn’t be applying the Basic Competence rule, you’d be creating a house rule that Tuba is a trained action. The Basic Competence rule would be ruling “Yes, you’re Legendary in Performance, but your 8 Con means you can’t breath efficiently enough to play a Tuba, so take your -1.
I dunno, exploration activities include everything from Make an Impression to Learning a Spell. I don't really see why exploring a bar is any less exploring than exploring a spell book or a conversation or whatever.
That’s a good point, and good news for Hanna-Barbera inspired adventuring parties.
As long as they're doing the same sort of thing I'd probably let it work on most skills.
Do remember Follow the Leader only seems to apply to Exploration mode.
And that many actions in Exploration mode probably don't make sense to have multiple people do. Like decipher writing. Sure you can follow the leader, but you will get a check that is less than the leader who is deciphering the writing and wont gain any additional insight from the text.
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For example, could your bard lead the whole party through a kick ass concert Performance? Personally I'd be inclined to let the circumstance bonus apply to the checks from the others, but probably wouldn't let them apply their level to an untrained skill. An expert could certainly help improve the performance of others, but wouldn't be able to reach you to play piano on the fly. (Well, maybe if they're legendary.)
I feel like it's not any harder to teach someone how to play the few notes over and over again on the piano than it is to show them how to sneak silently past a wary guard or climb the side of a mountain.
Plus, it's a setting where people shoot fire from their hands on a routine basis. If you start modifying simple rules to be more complicated in frankly minor edge cases just so that it feels a bit more realistic, you'll end up just confusing players with your arbitrary house rules.