Grapple someone and they become flatfooted.
Knock someone down and they are flatfooted.
Flank someone and they are flatfooted.
Flank someone, knock them down, and then grapple them, still just flatfooted.
And flatfooted really isn't all that bad. Sure, a rogue can now sneak attack you and you take a hit to AC, but it doesn't make you any easier to trip or grapple.
I'm having trouble coming to grips with the fact that a downed foe that is grappled and surrounded by enemies is only mildly inconvenienced.
Why do none of these things stack?
Are there any conditions that make maneuvers easier to pull off?
Sickened and Frightened reduces all saving throws making easier to land the maneuvers.
Clumsy reduces reflex saves so it's easier to trip and disarm.
Drained reduces fortitude saves making easier to grapple.
Sickened and Frightened reduces all saving throws making easier to land the maneuvers.
Clumsy reduces reflex saves so it's easier to trip and disarm.
Drained reduces fortitude saves making easier to grapple.
Not sure yet how to make someone clumsy, drained or sickened, but I've worked out some of the "frightened" mechanics. That could be a viable option.
Because the game isn't balanced around stacking so many penalties. Neither was PF1, but it's solution was to make it absurdly difficult to trip or grapple enemies.
Also, doing these things might not increase their AC penalty, but they provide other debuffs. Grabbed prevents you from moving and a has chance to mess up casting, plus is very hard to break out now if you don't get it on the first action. Prone packs a penalty to attack rolls and requires an action to cancel out. Blinded has a 50/50 miss chance plus a lot of other situational problems like being able to see where your going. Flanked doesn't do anything else, but also doesn't require a check to inflict.
Are there any conditions that make maneuvers easier to pull off?
Anything that decreases your DCs, like Frightened, Sickened, or Clumsy. Those also all stack with flat-footed.
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I don't mind there being 401 ways to make some one flat footed.
I just wish Flanking wasn't one of them, because Flanking is so easy (and makes the other 400 ways less valuable as a result).
So flat footed is effectively +2 to the attack roll. I think we can all agree on that.
Other games have gone this way. D&D 5e created advantage which is the functional equivalent of +2* to a roll. This was based on an earlier edition of D&D which had combat advantage which was also +2 to an attack roll.
I’m not surprised to see the idea of combat advantage dusted off, given a 3.5 appropriate name and inserted into PF2e. It stops characters from being able to stack too many penalties on an enemy so that characters with a bad attack roll can’t just remove that limitation. It also cuts down on bookkeeping.
*Depending in the odds of your success 5e’s advantage can actually grant a bigger bonus. I’m just simplifying it for the sake of discussion.
Oh yeah. If something reduces all DCs that applies to AC. That often isn’t obvious to everyone (wasn’t to me when I first read the book).
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I don't mind there being 401 ways to make some one flat footed.
I just wish Flanking wasn't one of them, because Flanking is so easy (and makes the other 400 ways less valuable as a result).
Flanking can actually be a death sentence. I’ve seen more than a few rogues die in PF1 as they try to get a flank. I think there are tactical reasons to use one version of flat footed over another.
Flanking can actually be a death sentence. I’ve seen more than a few rogues die in PF1 as they try to get a flank. I think there are tactical reasons to use one version of flat footed over another.I don't mind there being 401 ways to make some one flat footed.
I just wish Flanking wasn't one of them, because Flanking is so easy (and makes the other 400 ways less valuable as a result).
I agree. Flanking is often a trap, especially when outnumbered. I think the generalPF1 attitude of strike first with everything you got promoted that need to do whatever it takes to get your best hit in, but your best hit, or even your whole party's single round best hit is not enough to bring most enemies down and rushing into flanking will often mean having to spend the third action getting out of a potentially dangerous spot. The scoundrel rogue has much more effective way of setting up a round or two's worth of flat-footed without having to move away from the protection of your allies. Fighter feats are great two for setting up an adjacent ally.
I agree. Flanking is often a trap, especially when outnumbered. I think the generalPF1 attitude of strike first with everything you got promoted that need to do whatever it takes to get your best hit in, but your best hit, or even your whole party's single round best hit is not enough to bring most enemies down and rushing into flanking will often mean having to spend the third action getting out of a potentially dangerous spot. The scoundrel rogue has much more effective way of setting up a round or two's worth of flat-footed without having to move away from the protection of your allies. Fighter feats are great two for setting up an adjacent ally.Flanking can actually be a death sentence. I’ve seen more than a few rogues die in PF1 as they try to get a flank. I think there are tactical reasons to use one version of flat footed over another.I don't mind there being 401 ways to make some one flat footed.
I just wish Flanking wasn't one of them, because Flanking is so easy (and makes the other 400 ways less valuable as a result).
One of my players after a particularly tough high-level PF1 encounter observed that it wasn't tough because the monster had better offense than all the other monsters, it's because it was able to survive to use that offense.
And I agree that flanking is dangerous. More so in PF2 where creatures both survive longer and hit more often. Barbarians and Rogues (I guess) are supposed to risk being flanked because they have abilities against it. Or maybe their ACs are so low, it'd be a crit-party death sentence if such an easy maneuver worked on them.
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As a rogue I would discuss with the high AC characters to actually move into flanks. If they weren’t willing I probably wouldn’t play a rogue (took me 9 years in PF1 to finally give it a go) or would build a char to get flat footed another way.
Not sure yet how to make someone clumsy, drained or sickened, but I've worked out some of the "frightened" mechanics. That could be a viable option.Sickened and Frightened reduces all saving throws making easier to land the maneuvers.
Clumsy reduces reflex saves so it's easier to trip and disarm.
Drained reduces fortitude saves making easier to grapple.
Rogues have vicious debilitation for clumsy. But that is for the ruffian racket, so you would already be looking at intimidation and flat footed.
Also, the same feat also gives you the option to give the target weakness 5 to a damage type of your choice, which could arguably be a bigger bonus depending on the circumstances (i could imagine a flurrying ranger might love that).