Are feat levels NOT considered prerequisites for the feat? Can a level 3 character take a level 4 feat, for example? The only rule I can find addressing the issue is on page 255:
That's not actually a rule that says you must be of the appropriate level. Is it stated somewhere else? Did I overlook it?
Page 33 for Ancestry feats has:
"Ancestry feats are organized by level. As a starting
character, you can choose from only 1st-level ancestry
feats, but later choices can be made from any feat of
your level or lower. These feats also sometimes list
prerequisites—requirements that your character must
fulfill to select that feat."
Trying to find similar bits for other sections
page 68 "This section presents all the abilities the class grants
your character. An ability gained at a higher level lists
the required level next to the ability’s name."
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm the page 68 quote is in reference to class features not feats.
But here's the definitive rule, page 18: "If a character must
attain a certain level before accessing an ability, that level
is indicated to the right of the stat block’s name"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you for your research dedication NielsenE. You surely must have at least Master level search fu skill, and perhaps the Assurance feat as well.
Not being able to take a level 4 fighter class feat until you are a level 4 fighter is obviously the case, both as written, and I'm sure as intended.
But for non class specific feats it seems that the written rules and the authors intent may be somewhat inconsistent.
The page 18 quote certainly suggests that you can't take a "level 4" skill feat until you are a level 4 character.
Yet the line on page 255 "The level of a skill feat is TYPICALLY the minimum level at which a character could meet its proficiency prerequisite." [Emphasis added], would seem to suggest that the authors are open to the possibility that a character might somehow manage to qualify for a feat before a "typical" character would, and in such case would be able to take the feat.
For example, any feat for which expert level skill proficiency is a prerequisite is listed as a level 2 feat. Because typically, no character could be an expert in a skill before level 2 (and only if that character was a rogue).
But what if a later book introduced a new background or ancestry that allows a character to be an expert in a skill at level 1. Then that character would meet the feat prerequisites at level 1, sooner than a "typical" character would be able to. Can they take the skill feat at level 1 because they meet the prerequisites? Or must they wait until level 2 because it's a level 2 feat.
Although it's not a skill feat, a similar issue is created by the "ancient elf" elven ancestry. This ancestry gives you a "typically" 2nd level feat at level.1. Say you take cleric dedication. Typically you'd have to be 2nd level to take that. But now you get it at level 1.
Say you then want to take "basic dogma" as another multiclass cleric feat. Basic dogma has cleric dedication as a prerequisite, and is listed as fourth level feat. Why is it listed as a fourth level feat? Because for game balance a character should need to be fourth level before taking it? Or simply because a "typical" character would not be able to qualify for it before reaching fourth level.
I would suggest that an ancient elf who takes a multiclass feat at first level should be able to take another multi class feat at 2nd level, rather than having to wait until 4th level. I would suspect that's what the developers intended when introducing the ancient elf background. However, the page 18 reference, if taken literally, seems to suggest the elf needs to wait until 4th level before taking his second multi class feat.
Not being able to take a level 4 fighter class feat until you are a level 4 fighter is obviously the case, both as written, and I'm sure as intended.
But for non class specific feats it seems that the written rules and the authors intent may be somewhat inconsistent.
The page 18 quote certainly suggests that you can't take a "level 4" skill feat until you are a level 4 character.
Yet the line on page 255 "The level of a skill feat is TYPICALLY the minimum level at which a character could meet its proficiency prerequisite." [Emphasis added], would seem to suggest that the authors are open to the possibility that a character might somehow manage to qualify for a feat before a "typical" character would, and in such case would be able to take the feat.
For example, any feat for which expert level skill proficiency is a prerequisite is listed as a level 2 feat. Because typically, no character could be an expert in a skill before level 2 (and only if that character was a rogue).
But what if a later book introduced a new background or ancestry that allows a character to be an expert in a skill at level 1. Then that character would meet the feat prerequisites at level 1, sooner than a "typical" character would be able to. Can they take the skill feat at level 1 because they meet the prerequisites? Or must they wait until level 2 because it's a level 2 feat.
Although it's not a skill feat, a similar issue is created by the "ancient elf" elven ancestry. This ancestry gives you a "typically" 2nd level feat at level.1. Say you take cleric dedication. Typically you'd have to be 2nd level to take that. But now you get it at level 1.
Say you then want to take "basic dogma" as another multiclass cleric feat. Basic dogma has cleric dedication as a prerequisite, and is listed as fourth level feat. Why is it listed as a fourth level feat? Because for game balance a character should need to be fourth level before taking it? Or simply because a "typical" character would not be able to qualify for...
That's not a hypothetical. It's a thing that exists. Ancient Elf specifically lets you take a multiclass dedication that you do not meat the Level Prerequisite for. The only reason for it to say that is because the Level is a Prerequisite that you must meet to take it, unless an ability specifically says otherwise.
In your long life, you’ve dabbled in many paths and many styles. Choose a class other than your own. You gain the multiclass dedication feat for that class, even though you don’t meet its level prerequisite. You must still meet its other prerequisites to gain the feat.
Another reason for the "typically" is because something else might adjust the level at which you gain access to that feat. For example, many of the Archetypes in the PF2 Advanced Player's Guide provide a list of feats from other sources that are available to those with the specific Archetype.
Example: The Mauler dedication's Additional Feats includes Power Attack (Core Rulebook 144) as a 4th level feat. (Power Attack is a 1st level Fighter feat.)
I think the devs when making Ancient Elf valued it perfectly fine expecting people to follow the rules normally. The level 4 dedication feats are level 4 feats because that is the power level they felt appropriate. Ancient Elf is a perfectly strong heritage as is (a bonus Lvl 2 Feat at level 1) without musing that it should also reduce the level requirement of further multiclass feats (which ones, just the level 4s? What about level 6+ feats, do they all go down 2 levels too?)
If ancient elf does NOT let you take other multi class feats a level or two sooner than normal then it seems like a bit of a wasted ancestry to me.
I would not give up dark vision for a level two feat. But maybe that's just me. I like darkvision.
|
Yet the line on page 255 "The level of a skill feat is TYPICALLY the minimum level at which a character could meet its proficiency prerequisite." [Emphasis added], would seem to suggest that the authors are open to the possibility that a character might somehow manage to qualify for a feat before a "typical" character would, and in such case would be able to take the feat.
The level requirement of a skill feat is typically the level at which you a character could meet its proficiency requirement. Sometimes that's not how it's set.
For example, Skill Training doesn't have a proficiency requirement, so its level (1) is not based on meeting said nonexistent prerequisite. It's the only skill feat in the CRB that doesn't. Actually, I think it's the only one that doesn't fit that description--so it certainly is typical for skill feats.I'm not sure what the existence of atypical feats has to do with disregarding the level requirement of other feats. The quoted sentence has nothing to do with that.
However, the page 18 reference, if taken literally, seems to suggest the elf needs to wait until 4th level before taking his second multi class feat.
If by "seems to suggest" you mean "states plainly," then sure.
I think the devs when making Ancient Elf valued it perfectly fine expecting people to follow the rules normally. The level 4 dedication feats are level 4 feats because that is the power level they felt appropriate. Ancient Elf is a perfectly strong heritage as is (a bonus Lvl 2 Feat at level 1) without musing that it should also reduce the level requirement of further multiclass feats (which ones, just the level 4s? What about level 6+ feats, do they all go down 2 levels too?)If ancient elf does NOT let you take other multi class feats a level or two sooner than normal then it seems like a bit of a wasted ancestry to me.
I would not give up dark vision for a level two feat. But maybe that's just me. I like darkvision.
It essentially gives you a free Class Feat. That is never a waste. Even if it made you wait until Level 2 to take the Dedication, it would still be great.