I am considering a character who is basically the battle butler archetype. Capable of serving drinks with one hand while punching a bad guy's teeth out of their anus with the other.
This got me thinking that none of the styles in the book quite fit this character concept, at least the particular one I had in mind, nor do ki spells really feel like they'd fit, either, so I'll probably be going monastic weaponry with this particular character.
And that got me thinking, what sorts of fun stuff can you do if you go a style-less monk? Are there any fun combos you can think of, or is their bonus in the fact that they don't have to worry about pursuing later style feats, giving them more freedom to do things like run up walls, or over water, or walls of water?
Have you ever watched black butler. Make a Sebastian.
1: Pick Tiefling. Good thing with Tiefling is this feat and it matches Sebastian.
FIENDISH RESISTANCE FEAT 1
TIEFLING
You have a remarkable adaptation to hot
environments from ancestors who inhabited
the outer planes. This grants fire resistance
equal to half your level (minimum 1), and you
gain horns. These add an extra die to any
unarmed damage rolls that you make.
2: Get a cat familiar or companion ASAP. Do not ignore this step. This is important.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
mavbor wrote:
Have you ever watched black butler. Make a Sebastian.
1: Pick Tiefling. Good thing with Tiefling is this feat and it matches Sebastian.
FIENDISH RESISTANCE FEAT 1
TIEFLING
You have a remarkable adaptation to hot
environments from ancestors who inhabited
the outer planes. This grants fire resistance
equal to half your level (minimum 1), and you
gain horns. These add an extra die to any
unarmed damage rolls that you make.
2: Get a cat familiar or companion ASAP. Do not ignore this step. This is important.
Where are you getting this tiefling stuff?
|
3 people marked this as a favorite.
|
If you're fine with using Monastic Weaponry, then you're fine as a Monk and likely have more options vs. physical resistances & weaknesses (though not cold iron/silver which is an awesome perk of Monks later, though you could buy your way into that).
Also, since you don't need to set up a stance, you can run in, flurry, and run out in round one.
The must-have is Stunning Fist, assuming you'll Flurry.
And Athletics at max.
I like Bo Sticks for the reach plus Tripping is one of the easier maneuvers vs. big guys because it's vs. Reflex.
Admittedly an agile weapon might be better in some circumstances, but having your guy beat an intruder over the head with a fancy stick (and perhaps stunning them) seems to fit a battle butler.
Also, Stand Still (4th) could give you a good Reaction that takes advantage of reach. (It doesn't seem to ignore MAP though...)
You've eliminated many options, yet there are still tons left and in PF2 it doesn't take much investment to do several:
Maneuvers?
Monks have cool boosts to maneuvers, you just have decide which ones. They aren't as powerful as in PF1, but they also take less investment (other than Athletics) to do something cool with. Arguably, you'll be good enough at these by default w/ Athletics & Str.
As for fun, there are several feat options for tossing or throwing your enemies around.
I wouldn't bother with the ones that add token damage unless you plan on using that maneuver most rounds (which you probably shouldn't).
Mobility?
Innately, Monks already dominate here, but you can expand this with feats (though see Barb below), mainly skill feats.
Also a Flying Kick (4th) is pretty fun given how ridiculously high or long skill feats will let you jump.
Resist?
Several Monk feats aid defense, though I'd measure the need based on party composition and tactical preferences. The Monk's chassis w/ flurry & Stunning Fist gives a solid offense w/ solid mobility, so there's little loss building up defense.
Martial Dedication?
Barbarian probably has the best (since you don't have Ki Powers that the Rage interferes with), but arguments could be made for the others (or against that -1 AC from Rage). But later (8th?) gaining a climb & swim speed that match your Monk's land speed is pretty amazing!
(I also think since you'd have a climb speed, rather than just be climbing, that you could Flying Kick up onto a wall and smack a bad guy. Though I'd have to check PF2 rules.)
Caster Dedication?
Cleric is probably the best (Wisdom-based & access to Shield spell) though again, there are arguments that could be made for others. I wouldn't put too much into higher spells unless the party's desperate for casting.
I'd only advise this if you're often stuck going toe-to-toe so need that Shield (or really need the extra skills, I guess).
Good luck with your build,
Cheers.
lordcirth wrote:
Where are you getting this tiefling stuff?
Heaven and Hell pdf that is legal. I downloaded it yesterday from this site.
mavbor wrote: lordcirth wrote:
Where are you getting this tiefling stuff?
Heaven and Hell pdf that is legal. I downloaded it yesterday from this site.
What's your definition of legal? Is this 3pp? Because that feat IMMEDIATELY smacks of badly designed 3pp content.
And by that I mean it is an Ancestry Feat that does something that already matches the baseline for an Ancestry Feat (or Heritage rather) AND gives a frankly broken benefit that immediately becomes hard-optimal for anyone looking to use unarmed attacks primarily.
Good to know PF2 3pp is off to a strong start...
Edge93 wrote:
What's your definition of legal? Is this 3pp? Because that feat IMMEDIATELY smacks of badly designed 3pp content.
And by that I mean it is an Ancestry Feat that does something that already matches the baseline for an Ancestry Feat (or Heritage rather) AND gives a frankly broken benefit that immediately becomes hard-optimal for anyone looking to use unarmed attacks primarily.
Good to know PF2 3pp is off to a strong start...
I was just told it was legal and did not understand what that means in pathfinder. Guess in most games i run it would not actually be legal as we only run core. That is 3.5/5e and not sure how it is handled in Pathfinder as none of my friends want to play it. Will be joining a new group.
I myself think it is to strong and there are other feats that are just as broken if not more so in the Heaven and Hell. If it was the games I DM in 5e I would not allow it at the table at least for now. Once they add other core books with similar OP things I would reconsider.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
mavbor wrote: lordcirth wrote:
Where are you getting this tiefling stuff?
Heaven and Hell pdf that is legal. I downloaded it yesterday from this site.
Heaven and Hell is listed under the third-party products section. It's by Rising Phoenix Games.
Castilliano wrote: If you're fine with using Monastic Weaponry, then you're fine as a Monk and likely have more options vs. physical resistances & weaknesses (though not cold iron/silver which is an awesome perk of Monks later, though you could buy your way into that).
Also, since you don't need to set up a stance, you can run in, flurry, and run out in round one.
First off, awesome post, and much thanks. This was more to see if a style-less, ki-less monk could function, and you've pretty amply proved that they can. One little point though.
Monastic Weaponry wrote: You can use melee monk weapons with any of your monk feats or monk abilities that normally require unarmed attacks, though not if the feat or ability requires you to use a single specific type of attack, such as Crane Stance. Mystic Strikes and Metal Strikes, etc, are monk abilities, and would therefore qualify for inclusion by Monastic Weaponry, or at least that's how I read it.
Castilliano wrote: I like Bo Sticks for the reach plus Tripping is one of the easier maneuvers vs. big guys because it's vs. Reflex.
Admittedly an agile weapon might be better in some circumstances, but having your guy beat an intruder over the head with a fancy stick (and perhaps stunning them) seems to fit a battle butler.
Also, Stand Still (4th) could give you a good Reaction that takes advantage of reach. (It doesn't seem to ignore MAP though...)
Agreed on using the bo staff. I was already heavily considering that weapon. I'm not sure how the rules address things like handedness as regards things like unarmed strikes, but it seems that you should be able to kick with an unarmed strike if you wanted to swap to an agile weapon.
Castilliano wrote: You've eliminated many options, yet there are still tons left and in PF2 it doesn't take much investment to do several: Yup; and so far it's one of my favorite parts of the new edition.
I think I'll be going bo staff-using monk with Stunning Fist and focus on some maneuvers that I can reliably smack our enemies with, coupled with the absurd amount of movement the monk is so well-known for to be able to set up with any of my fellow party members.
I have a feeling that our rogue in particular will love me.
Perpdepog,
You're welcome. :)
Yeah, I've been wondering about the phrasing for Mystic/Metal Strikes and how it'd work with Monastic Weapons.
I'm hesitant to take a hard stance either way because while it seems straightforward RAW, it seems so counter-intuitive and against RAI. I guess if there's supposed to be a mystical aspect, it'd make sense to me that your essence flows through your weapons.
The kick in Flying Kick is flavor and you can use a Monastic Weapon AFAICT.
PF2 rules don't seem to care about handedness, neither right/left nor main/off. Given the genre, that's fine for me.
And yes, tripping for your Rogue will make you a buddy, and help protect back row folk too. One trick I thought of (then immediately saw in another thread!) was Assurance w/ Athletics for when your MAP is -10. You'd ignore MAP with that last maneuver, and while it wouldn't be high enough to effect normal or nimble creatures, it'd auto-trip giants & minion thugs.
Oh, and Stand Still should have no MAP despite not clarifying like some other Reactions do. I found a general rule that eliminates MAP for off-turn attacks (other than Readied Actions).
(Been thinking a bunch about PF2 in the interim.)
Cheers
Perpdepog wrote: bo staff This also has parry, so it's a defensive item too.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
A Monk with a bo staff who multiclasses paladin for retributive strike and ranged reprisals seems pretty fun.
Funny thing is you can take Ranged Reprisals before you can use it (it just requires the Paladin cause, which you get from the dedication, but it works off of the Paladin's reaction which you can't get until 6th.)
graystone wrote: Perpdepog wrote: bo staff This also has parry, so it's a defensive item too. Yup! As protective as a buckler and thrice as stylish.
Castilliano wrote: Yeah, I've been wondering about the phrasing for Mystic/Metal Strikes and how it'd work with Monastic Weapons.
I'm hesitant to take a hard stance either way because while it seems straightforward RAW, it seems so counter-intuitive and against RAI. I guess if there's supposed to be a mystical aspect, it'd make sense to me that your essence flows through your weapons.
I think it's intended to work that way, myself. The monk's design philosophy, at least for now, seems that you pick your "path" as a monk, whether that is using a specific martial arts style, focusing and doubling down on ki, or going the weapon route, and they all get you roughly to the same place, switching up how your unarmed attacks work. Monastic Weapons does this through the versatility of your weapon selection, which will get more robust as the system matures, while giving up the other benefits that styles give you like Mountain Style's AC, or Dragon Style's ability to ignore difficult terrain, as well as the cool style-specific feats that you encounter as you level up.
Not to mention that a weapon-wielding monk can have their fancy attacks knocked out of their hands or even destroyed, which a style user doesn't have to worry about.
Taking that all into account, plus the text, it seems like Paizo may have decided to let monks pretend all the weapons they wield are ki focusing/ki intensifying, to use a PF1E term, and I'm cool with that. It lets the weapon user fill a niche, that of versatility, that doesn't overshadow other styles of play.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Castilliano wrote: Also, Stand Still (4th) could give you a good Reaction that takes advantage of reach. (It doesn't seem to ignore MAP though...) All off-turn attacks ignore the MAP.
"The multiple attack penalty applies only during your turn, so you don’t have to keep track of it if you can perform an Attack of Opportunity or a similar reaction that lets you make a Strike on someone else’s turn."
Edge93 wrote: mavbor wrote: lordcirth wrote:
Where are you getting this tiefling stuff?
Heaven and Hell pdf that is legal. I downloaded it yesterday from this site.
What's your definition of legal? Is this 3pp? Because that feat IMMEDIATELY smacks of badly designed 3pp content.
And by that I mean it is an Ancestry Feat that does something that already matches the baseline for an Ancestry Feat (or Heritage rather) AND gives a frankly broken benefit that immediately becomes hard-optimal for anyone looking to use unarmed attacks primarily.
Good to know PF2 3pp is off to a strong start... This bodes well for 3pp. I've never touched 3pp because of these things. If you dig and put effort into it, you can find a decent one, but it's just safer to dismiss them as they're 95%(number pulled outta my butt) bad.
JRutterbush wrote: Castilliano wrote: Also, Stand Still (4th) could give you a good Reaction that takes advantage of reach. (It doesn't seem to ignore MAP though...) All off-turn attacks ignore the MAP.
"The multiple attack penalty applies only during your turn, so you don’t have to keep track of it if you can perform an Attack of Opportunity or a similar reaction that lets you make a Strike on someone else’s turn." Doesn't this also extend to if you use a reaction on your turn? I know it's specifically called out in Attack of Opportunity but can't recall if other, similar reactions have similar wording.
Okay, this is off-topic but we're talking about Monks so I gotta say it.
Tiger Stance or Tangled Forest Stance.
Plus Vorpal Rune.
Nuff' said.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Edge93 wrote: Okay, this is off-topic but we're talking about Monks so I gotta say it.
Tiger Stance or Tangled Forest Stance.
Plus Vorpal Rune.
Nuff' said.
Thank you for reminding me of this ever blessed combo.
PossibleCabbage wrote: A Monk with a bo staff who multiclasses paladin for retributive strike and ranged reprisals seems pretty fun.
Funny thing is you can take Ranged Reprisals before you can use it (it just requires the Paladin cause, which you get from the dedication, but it works off of the Paladin's reaction which you can't get until 6th.)
Bo Staff is just a really good weapon all around, IMO. Fighters can be great with it too when building for trip. Lots of oppies off of that weapon.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Appletree wrote: Edge93 wrote: Okay, this is off-topic but we're talking about Monks so I gotta say it.
Tiger Stance or Tangled Forest Stance.
Plus Vorpal Rune.
Nuff' said.
Thank you for reminding me of this ever blessed combo. "So then I warned the dragon that if they didn't back down, I would cut their head off with my bare hands."
"What happened?"
*Monk holds up a bloody sack* "They didn't back down."
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote: A Monk with a bo staff who multiclasses paladin for retributive strike and ranged reprisals seems pretty fun.
Funny thing is you can take Ranged Reprisals before you can use it (it just requires the Paladin cause, which you get from the dedication, but it works off of the Paladin's reaction which you can't get until 6th.)
ohh i like this idea
|
