Does the additional damage die from Fatal get doubled with the rest of the critical damage?
The CRB makes it clear that the additional die from Deadly does not, so I wondered.
Nope, it doesn't.
Under the description of critical damage seems pretty clear that fatal (similar to deadly) is an additional damage that does not get multiplied.
Nope, it doesn't.
Under the description of critical damage seems pretty clear that fatal (similar to deadly) is an additional damage that does not get multiplied.
Where? The Critical Hit text doesn't say anything about that. Page 278 says all damage is doubled and page 279 "Counting weapon dice" just says that for effects based on weapon dice count the extra die from fatal isn't counted.
With the specific mention to not double the dice from Deadly, I would think it gets doubled.
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Fatal: The fatal trait includes a die size. On a critical
hit, the weapon’s damage die increases to that die size
instead of the normal die size, and the weapon adds one
additional damage die of the listed size.
The bolded part here doesn't matter with regards to the question. If you had 2d6, they're now 2d8 (then double them).
Fatal: The fatal trait includes a die size. On a critical
hit, the weapon’s damage die increases to that die size
instead of the normal die size, and the weapon adds one
additional damage die of the listed size.
This is the part we have to figure out.
Deadly: On a critical hit, the weapon adds a weapon
damage die of the listed size. Roll this after doubling the
weapon’s damage.
Definitely do not double that die, pretty clear.
Now then, general rules.
Doubling and Halving Damage
Sometimes you’ll need to halve or double an amount of
damage, such as when the outcome of your Strike is a
critical hit, or when you succeed at a basic Reflex save
against a spell. When this happens, you roll the damage
normally, adding all the normal modifiers, bonuses,
and penalties. Then you double or halve the amount as
appropriate (rounding down if you halved it). The GM
might allow you to roll the dice twice and double the
modifiers, bonuses, and penalties instead of doubling
the entire result, but this usually works best for singletarget attacks or spells at low levels when you have a
small number of damage dice to roll. Benefits you gain
specifically from a critical hit, like the flaming weapon
rune’s persistent fire damage or the extra damage die
from the fatal weapon trait, aren’t doubled.
No, you do not double the bonus die from Fatal.
or the extra damage die
from the fatal weapon trait
Page 451.
Fatal: The fatal trait includes a die size. On a critical hit, the weapon’s damage die increases to that die size instead of the normal die size, and the weapon adds one additional damage die of the listed size.
Note that the pick and the light pick are the only weapons with this weapon property. Taking the example of the pick, its normal d6p gets increased to d10p and then you add another d10.
It says nothing about not doubling the resulting 2d10, so I would assume you then double the total. But it could easily go the other way, if we had some sort of clarification. So is it
* (2d10)x2 or is it
* (1d10)x2 + 1d10?
Edit: As Draco18 pointed out, it's the latter: (1d10+bonus)x2 + 1d10
Ah thanks! I was only reading the critical hit section. Giving the Fatal extra dice as an example for not doubling is as concrete as the rules can get, I guess. :D
Definitely seems like Deadly is better than Fatal then. You might not increase the base die with Deadly, but the extra damage improves as the number of damage dice improve from Striking runes. Fatal has no such increase.
Fatal on a pick is extra good due to the crit specialization. Much better than deadly in that case.
Definitely seems like Deadly is better than Fatal then. You might not increase the base die with Deadly, but the extra damage improves as the number of damage dice improve from Striking runes. Fatal has no such increase.fatal gets a much bigger boost from striking runes, since it modifies your base die
You get more benefit from deadly until you're fighting things more than 2 levels lower than yourself (when you start critting more often).
I did the math back during the playtest.
Fatal is a better trait, but you're taking a die size or two of lower base damage rating to have it.
Definitely seems like Deadly is better than Fatal then. You might not increase the base die with Deadly, but the extra damage improves as the number of damage dice improve from Striking runes. Fatal has no such increase.fatal gets a much bigger boost from striking runes, since it modifies your base die:
let's see:
pick vs rapier seem a fine comparison, both are one handed melee, both have base d6, so (assuming everything else is equal) they get the same "non crit damage".rapier is d6+ d8 deadly, which means:
no rune: 2d6+1d8 cit: 11.5
striking: 4d6+1d8: 18.5
greeater striking: 6d6+2d8: 30
major striking: 8d6+3d8: 41.5pick is d6 d10 fatal:
no rune: 2d10+1d10: 16.5
striking: 4d10+1d10: 27.5
greater striking: 6d10+1d10: 38.5
major striking: 8d10+1d10: 49.5to put it simple, since fatal is usually a 2 die size increase, it gives on average +2 damage/die, and since dices double on a crit, it's a 4 damage increase per die.
So, striking on fatal is giving +8 damage vs 0 for deadly
greater striking is giving +12 vs 1d8 (4.5)
major striking is giving +16 vs 2d8 (9)
My brain was failing at math or comprehension. To be fair, it was before coffee. I was thinking that pick crit was 1d10 + 1d10, increasing the die size, but forgetting to double the number of base dice. Thanks for being more aware than I.
Nope, it doesn't.
Under the description of critical damage seems pretty clear that fatal (similar to deadly) is an additional damage that does not get multiplied.Where? The Critical Hit text doesn't say anything about that. Page 278 says all damage is doubled and page 279 "Counting weapon dice" just says that for effects based on weapon dice count the extra die from fatal isn't counted.
With the specific mention to not double the dice from Deadly, I would think it gets doubled.
p.451 on doubling, it even uses the fatal trait as the example^^
"Benefits you gain
specifically from a critical hit, like the flaming weapon
rune’s persistent fire damage or the extra damage die
from the fatal weapon trait, aren’t doubled."
Thank you. It would've been nice if there had been a clause in the main Fatal entry like with Deadly, but at least it's in there somewhere.