Ki monk proficiency with occult sorcerer spells?


Advice


If I'm a ki monk by level 20 I'll have a master proficiency with an Occult spell DC through KI spellscasting monk features. If I take the sorcerer dedication with Aberrant and Occult spells and have sorcerer spells and cantrips can I use the master proficiency to cast the sorcerer spells?


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I don't see why not. Occult spellcasting is occult spellcasting. The only downside is your sorcerer spells still key off of charisma, while your monk powers are wisdom.


Ki doesn't make you a "spellcaster" even if it gives you focus powers.

"If you get focus spells from a class or other source that doesn’t grant spellcasting ability (for example, if you’re a monk with the Ki Strike feat), the ability that gives you focus spells also provides your proficiency rank for spell attack rolls and spell DCs, as well as the magical tradition of your focus spells. You gain the ability to Cast a Spell and use any spellcasting actions necessary to cast your focus spells (see below). However, you don’t qualify for feats and other rules that require you to be a spellcaster. "

That Proficiency is limited ONLY to the specific Focus Powers.

So your Occult DC will be trained/expert/etc as defined by the Archetype feats.

You don't get free master proficiency in Occult spells from Ki strike


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shroudb wrote:

Ki doesn't make you a "spellcaster" even if it gives you focus powers.

"If you get focus spells from a class or other source that doesn’t grant spellcasting ability (for example, if you’re a monk with the Ki Strike feat), the ability that gives you focus spells also provides your proficiency rank for spell attack rolls and spell DCs, as well as the magical tradition of your focus spells. You gain the ability to Cast a Spell and use any spellcasting actions necessary to cast your focus spells (see below). However, you don’t qualify for feats and other rules that require you to be a spellcaster. "

That Proficiency is limited ONLY to the specific Focus Powers.

So your Occult DC will be trained/expert/etc as defined by the Archetype feats.

You don't get free master proficiency in Occult spells from Ki strike

Nowhere does that passage imply that proficiency is not universal, all that says is you're not a spell caster just for having focus spells, and the source of your focus spells will usually give you proficiency in their tradition.

If proficiency isn't universal, why even bother calling it "occult spell DC proficiency" when it's actually "Monk Focus power DC proficiency?"


Brew Bird wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Ki doesn't make you a "spellcaster" even if it gives you focus powers.

"If you get focus spells from a class or other source that doesn’t grant spellcasting ability (for example, if you’re a monk with the Ki Strike feat), the ability that gives you focus spells also provides your proficiency rank for spell attack rolls and spell DCs, as well as the magical tradition of your focus spells. You gain the ability to Cast a Spell and use any spellcasting actions necessary to cast your focus spells (see below). However, you don’t qualify for feats and other rules that require you to be a spellcaster. "

That Proficiency is limited ONLY to the specific Focus Powers.

So your Occult DC will be trained/expert/etc as defined by the Archetype feats.

You don't get free master proficiency in Occult spells from Ki strike

Nowhere does that passage imply that proficiency is not universal, all that says is you're not a spell caster just for having focus spells, and the source of your focus spells will usually give you proficiency in their tradition.

If proficiency isn't universal, why even bother calling it "occult spell DC proficiency" when it's actually "Monk Focus power DC proficiency?"

read again.

it clearly states that the proficiency is for your Focus spells.

it gives you proficiency rank and tradition of your focus spells.

not universal for everything.

as for why it's called "occult" and not "monk power" i guess it's because there may be effects targeting "occult" things (like +1 vs Occult saves and etc)

so, your Ki powers ARE occult, and their DC IS an occult DC. That doesn't mean that you scale all occult stuff automatically, only your focus powers.


Brew Bird wrote:
I don't see why not. Occult spellcasting is occult spellcasting. The only downside is your sorcerer spells still key off of charisma, while your monk powers are wisdom.

As a monk it looks like yours DCs are keyed off of strength or dex. There isn't any language that I've found like paladin had to change it to a different state. It might be a mistake though.


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Jinjifra wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
I don't see why not. Occult spellcasting is occult spellcasting. The only downside is your sorcerer spells still key off of charisma, while your monk powers are wisdom.
As a monk it looks like yours DCs are keyed off of strength or dex. There isn't any language that I've found like paladin had to change it to a different state. It might be a mistake though.

There are numerous reports from gencon that it's Wisdom for their powers, they just "forgot" to write it lol.

It is mentioned in the example in the sidebar though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
shroudb wrote:
Brew Bird wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Ki doesn't make you a "spellcaster" even if it gives you focus powers.

"If you get focus spells from a class or other source that doesn’t grant spellcasting ability (for example, if you’re a monk with the Ki Strike feat), the ability that gives you focus spells also provides your proficiency rank for spell attack rolls and spell DCs, as well as the magical tradition of your focus spells. You gain the ability to Cast a Spell and use any spellcasting actions necessary to cast your focus spells (see below). However, you don’t qualify for feats and other rules that require you to be a spellcaster. "

That Proficiency is limited ONLY to the specific Focus Powers.

So your Occult DC will be trained/expert/etc as defined by the Archetype feats.

You don't get free master proficiency in Occult spells from Ki strike

Nowhere does that passage imply that proficiency is not universal, all that says is you're not a spell caster just for having focus spells, and the source of your focus spells will usually give you proficiency in their tradition.

If proficiency isn't universal, why even bother calling it "occult spell DC proficiency" when it's actually "Monk Focus power DC proficiency?"

read again.

it clearly states that the proficiency is for your Focus spells.

it gives you proficiency rank and tradition of your focus spells.

not universal for everything.

as for why it's called "occult" and not "monk power" i guess it's because there may be effects targeting "occult" things (like +1 vs Occult saves and etc)

so, your Ki powers ARE occult, and their DC IS an occult DC. That doesn't mean that you scale all occult stuff automatically, only your focus powers.

There are two phrases there. One is "The proficiency rank of your spell attack rolls and spell DCs", the other is "the magical tradition of your focus spells". Were there a comma prior to "of your focus spells", you would be correct in your reading. As written, the preposition "of your focus spells" applies specifically to the phrase "the magical tradition". Given that the magical tradition is already called out, there would be no need to specify that you are proficient in a particular tradition if that language served only to indicate the tradition. Rather, I am inclined to believe that the language within the monk class, "you are trained in spell DCs and spell attack rolls of that tradition. (in this case Occult)" means you are trained in the spell DCs and spell attack rolls of the Occult tradition, fullstop.

No other proficiency works as you describe. Any proficiency that has caveats has those caveats spelled out within the ability granting the proficiency. A fighter's expert proficiency in martial weapons still applies to an ability that cares about weapon proficiency, even if that ability comes from the rogue multiclass. A Cleric's proficiency in the divine tradition still applies to spells gained from a divine sorcerer multiclass, or, for that matter, to divine monk focus spells.

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