Ancestral Ally Boon Questions

[Waxen Pith]

While at GenCon this year I received the Convention Boon #4, Ancestral Ally. Quoting:

"If you have the divine bond or mount class feature, instead of choosing an animal companion from the list provided in the class description, you may instead call a mount from the list below so long as you are a member of the corresponding race. If the animal companion statistics for your race's mount are found in a source beyond the Core Assumption, the source is listed below."

Seems simple enough, however under Elf and Human they have Bird listed and no other source, so I assumed it was in the Core "Assumption" (i.e. Core Rulebook)

And when I check the animal companion list under Bird, it turns out birds are small and mounts need to be at least one size larger than your size class.

While I assume it is not the intention to have a human riding a small bird, am I missing something?

Archives of Nethys Link: https://aonprd.com/DruidCompanions.aspx?ItemName=Bird%20(Eagle/Hawk/Owl)

*Sorry couldn't get the embed link to work for some reason

[Waxen Pith]

Not to keep posting to my own thread but the reason I ask is that I've been wanting to play a cavalier in PFS for a while, but I am sure many of us are aware of the problems with getting a horse through a dungeon.

From the research I have done I've found this old post ( LINK ) where the issue is addressed by John Compton.

John Compton wrote:

This has been brought to my attention, and I'm revising the text of future versions of the boon that go to conventions. I'll post here again once that text is finalized, and those with the original version of the boon can use the revised text or the boon's text as they see fit (I believe the revised text is more beneficial, but I'll leave it out there as an option).

The intention is not to add mounts only (a relic of borrowing some of the language from the Mounted Tradition boon from last year). Rather the aim was to open up additional options for characters with any animal companion class feature (nature bond, hunter's bond, mount, divine bond, etc.) and strengthen an otherwise undervalued option for those that already have access to that creature.

Since that post was made in 2014 and I only received the boon a few days ago, I can assume that the boon was corrected in some way (I don't have the original text so I can't be sure).

But even if it wasn't changed the fact that it was reprinted means someone officially gave it the stamp of approval. In short, I'd like to use this to have a bird mount in PFS and I think I can present a good case to the table if I were questioned on it, but I don't want to get into an argument every time I play.

I'm going to roll out what I think would be a fair interpretation and then ask for feedback. And so we begin.

[shaventalz]

I would also like to know what "bird" means for this. It could mean the small-sized animal, but I'd like confirmation on that.

[Waxen Pith]

The wording on the boon overrides the normal requirements for a mount (it doesn't need to be larger, have a horizontal surface, need to be on the list, etc)

However there is one big thing that the boon doesn't override, mainly carrying capacity. If your horse takes STR damage it may not be able to carry you despite being a horse, and that should carry over to the Bird mount.

On a more minor note, even I don't believe that you could ride on the back of a small bird and have it fly, but the bird has two claws so it could carry you with them (assuming the STR requirement is there).

So what STR would a Bird need to carry a armored human?

Assume human weighs 175 lb.
Steel Lamellar (35 lb) + Lance (10 lb) + Handy haversack (5 lbs) = 50 lbs
Total = 225 lbs
Required STR score for light load: 26
Required STR score for Med load: 21
* taking into account small adjust of 3/4

Bird STR is listed as 10 so we have a ways to go.

Human Alt. Racial: Eye for Talent - +2 STR
1 level dip in hunter for animal focus: +2 STR
Animal Companion feat: hefty Brute (treated as Medium to eliminate the small penalty)
Hunter 1st level spell, Ant Haul: triples carrying capacity

So in two levels we have a bird with 14 STR, treated as medium instead of small for carrying capacity and with triple carrying capacity. The bird can comfortably carry me at second level as a medium load.

Would anyone have any strong objections to this, players or GM's?

I want to play this build but I don't want to suck the fun out of the table.

And can we please avoid the realism arguments? I concede that the bird has to carry me and will lose those natural attacks. This is a fantasy world, a knight carried by a small bird is not the most outlandish thing I've ever seen in a module :)

[Blake's Tiger]

If you use the boon to select Bird, you have a not-ridable animal companion using the Mount class feature, much like the Huntmaster cavalier archetype. The boon does not override the rules for mounted combat, it overrides the list of animals that you can choose with the Mount class feature.

If you're willing to dip Hunter anyhow, take Hunter at first level with the Courtly Hunter archetype and then you can get a Large animal companion or mount into a dungeon as a shapechanging Tiny version of itself.

[Waxen Pith]

And for giggles, here are some other, perhaps more dubious ways of getting the STR score higher:

Masterwork backpack: No, it's not a giant backpack capable of holding a human, it's an... air saddle! Treats STR as +1 higher for carrying capacity, and honestly the, ahem, air saddle makes more sense.Technically, you'd have to use Flying Straps (though Exotic Saddle would work also and would never break since you never need to make the Fly check since it doesn't mention that under saddle but, anyway).

Anyway, I'd rule it that you'd have to use Flying straps, but that the player could be in a giant back pack. You'd have to find that chart on armor price size conversion to figure out the cost though. But the problem is, if we let you do that then you could technically use a

Bag of holding: Even the lowest bag of holding could carry a person, especially if that person were hanging out of it halfway so they could lance charge. You're inviting the GM to shoot the bag and cut off half your character or worse, but if I had to rule it I would say: half the weight of the character + items carried + weight of bag = approx 150 lbs and work from there. That said, I'm not going this route because if I had to GM that, every archer would shoot at the bag. Let's not get into the "armor plate the bag" rabbit hole :)

Hunter 1st level spell: Enlarge person - As far as I am aware, if you take your first level in Cavalier and then your second level in Hunter, you get a mount that is combat trained but doesn't have share spells, and then it stacks with the Hunter levels and gains share spells. I'm rather sure that this is accepted at this point, so yeah, enlarge person for big(ger) bird.

[Waxen Pith]

Ah, because you are not riding it you can't roll Ride, so effectively, etc. etc.

Thank you honestly.

It is a shame, though. Cavalier is such a fun class, but being restricted to such a small pool of suitable mounts is a bit stifling for society play :(