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So yesterday, Mark Moreland said the following regarding the new iconic that would be replacing one of the old ones for the Advanced Player's Guide:
What would you say if I told you that we've already illustrated the new iconic and you've all seen them? And no, we're not updating an existing NPC to iconic status.
We know that the Advanced Player's Guide is going to have 4 classes, the Oracle, the Investigator, the Swashbuckler, and the Witch. Of these, it's been confirmed that Feiya is not in the running to be replaced. That means we're getting a new iconic for either the Oracle, Swashbuckler, or Investigator. So who's it going to be? And where is this illustration we've apparently all seen?
My crack theory? The Swashbuckler and Gunslinger may have been merged into a single class with different paths, thus, our new Iconic Swashbuckler isn't even a new Iconic at all, it's Lirianne!
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Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.
Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.
You say this with such confidence that I'm not sure if it's your theory or if there's confirmation somewhere that I haven't seen. I don't think Shardra would work as the Oracle unless they scrap the curse mechanic (which I suppose they could).
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Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.
I kind of like this theory. Shaman and oracle both being conceptually supported in one class covers a lot of good flavour-space.
Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.
That would be interesting. Do you remember where Shardra art was previewed? I don't recall seeing it.
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I don’t know. I got the impression that it is a “new” iconic. So a new person completely. Not a pre-existing one being the new iconic for that class as a replacement
I haven’t poured over the art to come up with a theory though
Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.That would be interesting. Do you remember where Shardra art was previewed? I don't recall seeing it.
It's in the Shining Kingdoms blog post.
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Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.You say this with such confidence that I'm not sure if it's your theory or if there's confirmation somewhere that I haven't seen. I don't think Shardra would work as the Oracle unless they scrap the curse mechanic (which I suppose they could).
They're not scrapping it. Jason even said that he wish in PF1 they could have made a mechanic for the Oracle to "throw/pass" their curse on to others.
Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.
Except it's not an updated picture by Wayne Reynolds, who does the first illustration of all the iconics. Shardra is also in the section specifically about the shamanistic Rivethun order.
On the other hand, Mark does use the "them" pronoun - even though Shardra specifically uses the pronoun "she" in her introduction blog.The Iruxi on the Lost Omens character guide could also be a viable candidate (Oracle?).
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Has there been official Iruxi art released yet? I'm in the market for a Lizard(wo)man iconic.
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Alahazra (Oracle iconic) does look like she's had a new, upgraded outfit in the latest PF1 offering (Druma, Profit and Prophecy), which could speak against her being replaced.
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Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.Except it's not an updated picture by Wayne Reynolds, who does the first illustration of all the iconics.
On the other hand, Mark does use the "them" pronoun.The Iruxi on the Lost Omens character guide could also be a viable candidate (Oracle?).
I'm pretty sure Mark is using "them" so as not to reveal the gender of the iconic, not because the new iconic will use "they/them" pronouns. Also, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but Shardra uses "she/her". None of the PF1 iconics use gender-neutral pronouns, though it'd be great to get one who does in PF2.
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Alahazra (Oracle iconic) does look like she's had a new, upgraded outfit in the latest PF1 offering (Druma, Profit and Prophecy), which could speak against her being replaced.
It's not a new outfit specifically for her; she's dressed as a Kalistocrat and Harsk is dressed as a member of the Mercenary League, two of the big factions for Druma.
Alahazra (Oracle iconic) does look like she's had a new, upgraded outfit in the latest PF1 offering (Druma, Profit and Prophecy), which could speak against her being replaced.It's not a new outfit specifically for her; she's dressed as a Kalistocrat and Harsk is dressed as a member of the Mercenary League, two of the big factions for Druma.
True, I had forgotten about that detail.
I'm pretty sure Mark is using "them" so as not to reveal the gender of the iconic, not because the new iconic will use "they/them" pronouns. Also, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, but Shardra uses "she/her". None of the PF1 iconics use gender-neutral pronouns, though it'd be great to get one who does in PF2.Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.Except it's not an updated picture by Wayne Reynolds, who does the first illustration of all the iconics.
On the other hand, Mark does use the "them" pronoun.The Iruxi on the Lost Omens character guide could also be a viable candidate (Oracle?).
Yeah, I was just amending my post with that piece of information as you were writing this. ;-)
It's in the Shining Kingdoms blog post.Shardra, who has been illustrated for PF2 art already previewed, will be the Oracle iconic.That would be interesting. Do you remember where Shardra art was previewed? I don't recall seeing it.
As Giant pointed out, that's not Wayne Reynolds art. I'm not even sure if it's new art, for that matter. That said, we don't know that we've seen their final art yet, this iconic has just been illustrated, in some fashion, in something we've all seen.
Alahazra (Oracle iconic) does look like she's had a new, upgraded outfit in the latest PF1 offering (Druma, Profit and Prophecy), which could speak against her being replaced.It's not a new outfit specifically for her; she's dressed as a Kalistocrat and Harsk is dressed as a member of the Mercenary League, two of the big factions for Druma.
Aw, Damn, I love that look for her. I get a serious Storm vibe in a very good way.
Looking at the original Shaman class in the advanced class guide and the Oracle in the 1st edition advanced players guide. I will say I support the "Shardra as the new oracle" theory. the classes are very similar in theme and design,(spirits and mysteries match in name and flavor), both would fit the theme of a divine caster with the focus on the life and spirit essences and the focus on the pantheistic side of the divine, the familiar could be an option or side effect of a cure to act as an aide to the oracle. The whispering in her backstory sound like the haunted curse to some extent. so i think this change is most likely of all the others suggested.
Speaking of new iconics, who is the lady presented in the PF2 CRB's page 417? She looks like to be drawn by WAR (my favorite western artist, by the way), and I may have (or not) seen her before in an AP cover...
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Speaking of new iconics, who is the lady presented in the PF2 CRB's page 417? She looks like to be drawn by WAR (my favorite western artist, by the way), and I may have (or not) seen her before in an AP cover...
NPC Shattered Star 1st adventure shards of sin.
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I mean... it's Lirianne.
I would add that Mark Moreland wrote that quote specifically quoting/responding to somebody who mistakenly claimed Lirianne was candidate for being replaced. When *Jirelle* is the Swashbuckler iconic that may be replaced (Lirianne is Gunslinger), yet Mark didn't correct her when stating that... Because she got it wrong, yet at same time had identified the exact replacement combo, just in reverse. So Mark couldn't resist.
Also, with Paizo wanting Alchemist in CRB in order to build on, it seems plausible Firearms could fulfill that, and parallel with Duelist Archetype there could be Firearms/Gunslinger Archetype so Lirianne Swashbuckler could just as easily play Gunslinger when using right Archetype Feats. I mean, merging those classes itself seems hugely likely, and doing it when Swashbuckler is introduced is probably cleanest way to do so, not developing Swashbuckler in biased way until Firearms/Gunslinger Archetype or Sub-Class is later introduced.
And it's kind of boring, but Lirianne replacing Jirelle is 1/2 Elf for 1/2 Elf, so not reducing 1/2 Elf "representation".
Too many coincidences and conveniences for me to not say Lirianne.
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I actually wasn't sure the iconic Swashbuckler and Gunslinger were supposed to be different characters at first. They're pretty similar. So I do think the Lirianne option makes a lot of sense.
Speaking of new iconics, who is the lady presented in the PF2 CRB's page 417? She looks like to be drawn by WAR (my favorite western artist, by the way), and I may have (or not) seen her before in an AP cover...
Sheila Heidmarch. Pathfinder in Magnimar. It is WAR-drawn, though slightly different coloring than his usual brush strokes so I also wasn't 100% sure it was him at first glance. She's on a cover in the Shattered Star AP.
I figured it would be a female goblin, so maybe one of the We be Goblins tribe?
I mean... it's Lirianne.
I would add that Mark Moreland wrote that quote specifically quoting/responding to somebody who mistakenly claimed Lirianne was candidate for being replaced. When *Jirelle* is the Swashbuckler iconic that may be replaced (Lirianne is Gunslinger), yet Mark didn't correct her when stating that... Because she got it wrong, yet at same time had identified the exact replacement combo, just in reverse. So Mark couldn't resist.
Also, with Paizo wanting Alchemist in CRB in order to build on, it seems plausible Firearms could fulfill that, and parallel with Duelist Archetype there could be Firearms/Gunslinger Archetype so Lirianne Swashbuckler could just as easily play Gunslinger when using right Archetype Feats. I mean, merging those classes itself seems hugely likely, and doing it when Swashbuckler is introduced is probably cleanest way to do so, not developing Swashbuckler in biased way until Firearms/Gunslinger Archetype or Sub-Class is later introduced.
And it's kind of boring, but Lirianne replacing Jirelle is 1/2 Elf for 1/2 Elf, so not reducing 1/2 Elf "representation".
Too many coincidences and conveniences for me to not say Lirianne.
Hmm. I mean... We don't KNOW yet though!
Jokes aside, I'm kind of convincing myself it is Lirianne for Jirelle.
I like Shardra a lot, and I'd love to see her, and support from shaman type characters (which took too long to be realised in PF1 I always thought, it's a powerful trope.)
But I've been looking at the iconic illustrations, and reading the meet the iconics stories, and I do think they'll fold Jirelle and make Lirianne the iconic Swashbuckler now.
They are very visually similar. Two of the least distinct iconics. Both dark haired half-elfs with kind of pale skin. They both wear dakr or nuetral toned leather armor. Lirianne's paler, more browns than blacks, wears a hat and of course they have different weapons. But they have similar silhouettes. Which is bad for what iconics are supposed to do and be as art shorthands. Silhouette is very important.
Also Jirelle's backstory hasn't got to much going on, so she doesn't occupy a vital or interesting story telling space.
I suppose I hope Magus, and Shaman don't take too long after this book so we can fill those conceptual thematic niches and see cool character's like Shardra again.
My current bets, most to least likely:
Jirelle replaced by Lirianne as iconic swashbuckler. Guns supported through equipment and archetypes.
Alhazra replaced by Shardra as iconic oracle. Oracle supports shaman ideas. Oracle has been mentioned as getting redesigned to not overlap too much with divine sorcerer.
Imrijka replaces Quinn as Investigator. Investigator supports Inquisitor concepts. Adds a half-orc iconic along with the half-elf. And but I'm not convinced on the class concept overlap, and both Quinn and Imrijka are very cool and distinct visually.
I like the Jirelle/Lirianne theory, but I think if guns rules and the gunslinger as an archetype were in the APG, don't you think they would at least have teased that at Gen Con?
I like the Jirelle/Lirianne theory, but I think if guns rules and the gunslinger as an archetype were in the APG, don't you think they would at least have teased that at Gen Con?
This could be a two part update -- basic class in Advanced Player's Guide, and gun equipment and archetype rules in some future product.
I like the Jirelle/Lirianne theory, but I think if guns rules and the gunslinger as an archetype were in the APG, don't you think they would at least have teased that at Gen Con?
Not necessarily, there's so much that's in the APG that they probably haven't spoiled a significant chunk of it. Also Mark Seifter mentions a GUNPERSON archetype, and they frequently discussed half-formed ideas that are in the running out loud throughout the 2e direction seminar. So it wouldn't be totally out of left field IMO.
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I like the Jirelle/Lirianne theory, but I think if guns rules and the gunslinger as an archetype were in the APG, don't you think they would at least have teased that at Gen Con?
I think we are going to want to test guns in the APG playtest but they don't necessarily want to commit to putting them in the book in case the playtest result is something like "requires more work."
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Ruzza already managed to find artwork of the new iconic, it's the Investigator.
https://imgur.com/kH5VgWE
...Okay I really just couldn't resist reposting that because it's too perfect. :P