I was interested in taking a look at how the mutagenic alchemist works.
Has anybody looked into making this type of alchemist?
One of the mutagens says it does a claw and bite attack. Does this mean I can attack with 1 and then if I attack with the other attack (be it claw or bite) that I'd have to take a -5 attack roll penalty?
At level 1, the mutagens aren't cheap. And they don't seem to be doing all that much damage, is it even worth the damage in exchange for an expensive mutagen cost?
Stats wise, would I want my strength to be highest and then int?
Any help or insight on how I should go about making this type of character would be greatly helpful and appreciated!
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Multiple attack penalty applies to all kind of attacks, and natural attacks are no exception. If those natural attacks have the agile trait, they only add 4 to your penalty, not 5.
Regarding the price, remember, you're an alchemist and you can make some of these things for free during your daily preparations.
I expect this type of character would be dependent on a lot of attributes. Strength would be desirable for melee attacks, if you want to try to focus on the claw and bite, as well as to carry your heavy equipment. You would want intelligence, since that affects how many free items you can kit yourself out with for the day.
You may want to pay some attention to dex and con, as attributes that will help you to survive. You'll have a balancing act to do.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
You always take penalties on attacks after the first, having both a claw and bite is useful because sometimes you want different types of damage (Slashing is better against zombies, for example).
As an Alchemist, you get a number of free Alchemical items a day. You use those for your Mutagens rather than paying the Gold.
You certainly want high Str as a melee-focused Mutagenist, but Intelligence determines the aforementioned free items, so it's very good as well (and you can max it at 18, while Str maxes out at 16 for you). Dex is also nice for AC, and Con for HP. Wis would be good for Will Saves eventually, but the other four probably take a certain amount of precedence.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Well, at least we're in agreement. :)
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
For a mutagenist, I'd say that revivifying Mutagen feat seems like a huge trap.
The way mutagen item levels are, you'd only heal 1d6 until level 11, where you'd need to end one of your normal mutagens (i.e. Not the free ones) to heal 5d6.
For your "spammable" mutagens you'll heal only 1d6 till level 17.
And it'll take 3 actions for said healing (quick, drink, revivify)
So obviously it's terrible in combat, but out of combat a single treat wounds is vastly superior.
Instead, for 2 actions from much earlier you can spam 10 temp hp every round without spending anything if you feel there's such a need for such low amounts of healing to begin with.
I'd say that class feats:
2, 4, 6, 10 are better spent on archetypes imo.
One of your bigger problems will be survivability early on, so I'd:
I'd start with 12 dex at level 1 and medium armor proficiency, and something like a chain mail, but still increase dex at 5 and 10, at 5 you'd still use medium but at 10 and onwards you can change to light armor and retrain the medium armor proficiency away.
I'd also probably invest into a shield (especially if I multi paladin) since your "weapon" keeps your hand already free for quick Alchemy.
And probably also intimidate skill line.
I'm also a big fan of Eternal elixir over Eternal Mutagen even for the mutagenist.
You already create 3 mutagens per point, each lasting 2 hours with extend already. So you get 6h of mutagens /ingredient, no need for permanent ones imo.
Better to have permanent concealment/speed/vision and even fly/invisibility and etc later on
As far as I know, Revivifying Mutagen is the only method to end a mutagen's effect prematurely.
If you are running from combat, ending bestial mutagen could be useful. If you are getting into combat, ending cognitive mutagen could be useful (particularly when you get to greater mutagens.)
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Leotamer wrote: As far as I know, Revivifying Mutagen is the only method to end a mutagen's effect prematurely.
If you are running from combat, ending bestial mutagen could be useful. If you are getting into combat, ending cognitive mutagen could be useful (particularly when you get to greater mutagens.)
Haven't run (in the playtest) in the issue of having to end prematurely a mutagen.
Then again, I mostly used combat mutagens on myself and gave the free lesser ones to our skill monkeys. Those don't last long, and revivifying wouldn't do anything for them as well.
By virtue of needing 5 stats as a mutagenist, you will never be the social machine either way, except maybe intimidate, but for that feral is a boon either way.
So why would you need a way to end it soon?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I think this is a great question as I find the mutagenist the class that seems like the biggest trap. It isn't a straight forward build and I could easily be missing something. Is it supposed to be a melee build? A mr. Hyde type of character.
I see you can also go with a more finesse build with quicksilver and use bombs but I was thinking that would be more for the bomber alchemist.
Lets say I want to go Mr. Hyde route. How do I make it work? The Bestial mutagen requires ST as the attacks are not finesse (or am I missing something)? The quick build suggests strength.
With poor armor and average dx (+ the penalty from bestial) it looks like I am going to get murdered.
Feat wise, there is minimal support until L8 (feral mutagen). I suppose I play more as Dr. Jeckyll until L8?
What advise would you give for this style of character. I like the idea of him, but I worry he may be more of a liability? Would multiclassing help?
Mutagenist seems to me to work best as a generalist/utility person, using high Int to dabble in skills then Mutagens to be good at whichever is most useful at the moment, or loan at mutagens to improve those who already are.
Your AC is a bit low when going combat with Bestial Mutagen, certainly, but not as low as it looks past the very early levels, and if you go Human (or make it to 3rd level) you can grab Medium Armor Proficiency to manage through those if you like.
Kerobelis wrote: I think this is a great question as I find the mutagenist the class that seems like the biggest trap. It isn't a straight forward build and I could easily be missing something. Is it supposed to be a melee build? A mr. Hyde type of character.
I see you can also go with a more finesse build with quicksilver and use bombs but I was thinking that would be more for the bomber alchemist.
Lets say I want to go Mr. Hyde route. How do I make it work? The Bestial mutagen requires ST as the attacks are not finesse (or am I missing something)? The quick build suggests strength.
With poor armor and average dx (+ the penalty from bestial) it looks like I am going to get murdered.
Feat wise, there is minimal support until L8 (feral mutagen). I suppose I play more as Dr. Jeckyll until L8?
What advise would you give for this style of character. I like the idea of him, but I worry he may be more of a liability? Would multiclassing help?
Haven't played him on live, but he was the only semicompetent archetype in the playtest.
You're correct that Hyde is the correct way to play him.
And you're correct that most early feats, 2,4,6,10 in particular seem like the perfect time to archetype.
You'd want to start with at least 16 str and 12 dex as well as a way to get medium armor proficiency early on. Either by general feat at 1, or multiclass at 2.
Grab a shield, and either use your 3rd action to move out of danger or raise your shield.
Keep a few healing elixirs nearby.
Familiar on 1 isn't a bad choice, it's an extra pair of eyes and 2 more healing potions/mutagens. Later on, you can switch his abilities to lab assistant so you can "drink" quick Alchemy potions with 1 action (you give the action to the familiar, he makes the item and administers it to you with his two actions)
As you progress keep an eye for useful elixirs like Mistform that will grant you concealment (so miss chance).
By level 13 you'd want to have at least 16 dex and using light armor. You need that expert (and capstone master) proficiency to keep up.
When you get double Mutagen your troubles are finally alleviated since now you can use juggernaut alongside bestial.
Deadmanwalking wrote: Mutagenist seems to me to work best as a generalist/utility person, using high Int to dabble in skills then Mutagens to be good at whichever is most useful at the moment, or loan at mutagens to improve those who already are.
Your AC is a bit low when going combat with Bestial Mutagen, certainly, but not as low as it looks past the very early levels, and if you go Human (or make it to 3rd level) you can grab Medium Armor Proficiency to manage through those if you like.
Medium armour doesn't seem to add a lot unless I dump DX. DX is such a good stat, I may as well stick with light armor (max DX +3) which I think is doable (14 or 16 starting dex) to get my max +5 to AC. Also if I take medium armour it doesn't upgrade later (although that is a long way away..)
Maybe a shield would help? Not sure how that will affect my handiness (have to look in detail if I need 2 hands all the time).
I was even thinking of dumping INT a bit as it isn't the most helpful. Surely not start with 18. 14 or 16 may be enough.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Kerobelis wrote: Deadmanwalking wrote: Mutagenist seems to me to work best as a generalist/utility person, using high Int to dabble in skills then Mutagens to be good at whichever is most useful at the moment, or loan at mutagens to improve those who already are.
Your AC is a bit low when going combat with Bestial Mutagen, certainly, but not as low as it looks past the very early levels, and if you go Human (or make it to 3rd level) you can grab Medium Armor Proficiency to manage through those if you like.
Medium armour doesn't seem to add a lot unless I dump DX. DX is such a good stat, I may as well stick with light armor (max DX +3) which I think is doable (14 or 16 starting dex) to get my max +5 to AC. Also if I take medium armour it doesn't upgrade later (although that is a long way away..)
Maybe a shield would help? Not sure how that will affect my handiness (have to look in detail if I need 2 hands all the time).
I was even thinking of dumping INT a bit as it isn't the most helpful. Surely not start with 18. 14 or 16 may be enough. Ehh it's much easier starting with lower dex and raising it on your way to expert light.
For starters, you need high str (16) to hit and do damage, and Int is more resources through the day.
You obviously can't start with 3 16+ stats, so one has to go. Dex is the easiest to abandon in the early level since it's combat usefulness is replaced by a single general feat (medium armor prof).
Dumping wis too much is also not ideal since Will is your worst save already, and when you'll start using juggernaut, you'll have an extra -2 on it.
Wisdom is also the initiative stat in pf2 in like 80% of the cases.
And that's on top of using shield. There's no reason NOT to use shield already either way.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Medium Armor Proficiency can also be retrained once your Dex is high enough to switch to Light.
With an elf I could go
STR / DEX / INT = 16
CON / CHA / WIS = 10
or as a human I could go
INT / STR = 16
DEX = 14
CON = 12
WIS / CHA = 10
Not sure which is better. Would also depend on looking at the ancestor feats (which I haven't really). I do like the idea of a half orc feral alchemist....
scratch what i said before.
just went over the new meastial mutagen.
the whole Class is a TRAP since they decided to nerf even that archetype to oblivion (which was just barely playable to begin with)
with new mutagen, there's really 0 reason to even try to make it work, it's just a worst greatsword user at this point.
"And you're correct that most early feats, 2,4,6,10 in particular seem like the perfect time to archetype."
What does this mean 'perfect time to archetype' ?
Shroudb, I think I agree with you, this class doesn't seem very viable as a Mr. Hyde mutagenic alchemist, he just seems weaker overall to his counterparts.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
The Alchemist is a bit weaker at straight combat than a full martial character, yes (though not as much weaker as shroudb seems to think, IMO). They're much better at a variety of utility stuff and problem solving.
If that's not what you're going for, you might indeed want another Class. Barbarian is good for turning into a monster and biting people in the face.
As a big fan of PF1 Alchemists, it's a little disappointing to see mutagen-users not quite holding up against some of the other martial options. I hope we get something like a Master Chymist archetype to exchange a bit of utility for more punch in the melee department.
Kerobelis wrote: With an elf I could go
STR / DEX / INT = 16
CON / CHA / WIS = 10
or as a human I could go
INT / STR = 16
DEX = 14
CON = 12
WIS / CHA = 10
Not sure which is better. Would also depend on looking at the ancestor feats (which I haven't really). I do like the idea of a half orc feral alchemist....
How did you manage to get two 16 an one 14 and a 12 as a human? Try as i may, im not able to figure out how. Or maybe im just dumb...
sirDareth wrote: Kerobelis wrote: With an elf I could go
STR / DEX / INT = 16
CON / CHA / WIS = 10
or as a human I could go
INT / STR = 16
DEX = 14
CON = 12
WIS / CHA = 10
Not sure which is better. Would also depend on looking at the ancestor feats (which I haven't really). I do like the idea of a half orc feral alchemist....
How did you manage to get two 16 an one 14 and a 12 as a human? Try as i may, im not able to figure out how. Or maybe im just dumb... I think like this:
class: +2INT
background +2STR +2DEX
race +2INT +2STR
stats: +2INT,+2STR,+2DEX,+2CON
total: +6INT,+6STR,+4DEX,+2CON
Hammerspace wrote: sirDareth wrote: Kerobelis wrote: With an elf I could go
STR / DEX / INT = 16
CON / CHA / WIS = 10
or as a human I could go
INT / STR = 16
DEX = 14
CON = 12
WIS / CHA = 10
Not sure which is better. Would also depend on looking at the ancestor feats (which I haven't really). I do like the idea of a half orc feral alchemist....
How did you manage to get two 16 an one 14 and a 12 as a human? Try as i may, im not able to figure out how. Or maybe im just dumb... I think like this:
class: +2INT
background +2STR +2DEX
race +2INT +2STR
stats: +2INT,+2STR,+2DEX,+2CON
total: +6INT,+6STR,+4DEX,+2CON Oooh. I somehow manage to miss the proces of apllying more ability boosts of your own choosing, when reading the rulebook.
Turn out im dumb :D
Thanks, man.
|
