I have been working on a guide to UMD and some specific questions.
1) Activate Blindly, what items does this check apply/not apply to?
2) Mishaps, can they happen on any check to activate an item that fails by 10 or is it only applicable to items "activated blindly"?
3) Scroll mishaps, can they happen when activating scrolls via UMD, or are they only when you activate a scroll via the "normal" method?
4) Does the +2 to activating an item from activating previously apply to wand/staves?
1) If you haven't identified an item, you don't know its command word. I think there might be edge cases where identifying an item doesn't reveal its command word but the two most common methods (Detect Magic, Identify) both reveal the command word.
2) Only activate blindly or when trying to cause an intentional mishap.
3) They shouldn't mishap via UMD. The DC 20 + CL check is essentially a combination of DC 20 plus the rules for emulating a class feature to determine your caster level - if you make the check, you have already UMD'd having the appropriate CL and won't chance mishap.
4) I would say that the +2 only applies to the activate blindly use of UMD, and would only work on a specific item that you've previously activated blindly. So yes, if you have activated wands/staves blindly before?
So far we have coflicting thoughts on 2, 3 and maybe 4...
So far we have coflicting thoughts on 2, 3 and maybe 4...
Well, I'm not 100% sure I'm right about 3 (and thus 2) anymore. I've been playing the way I said for a while without giving it much thought but I wouldn't be surprised if a DM required you to make the UMD check to emulate caster level in addition to the UMD check to use the scroll. If it's for your guide, I'd err on the side of caution and either use or mention the more conservative ruling (a check to use the scroll AND check to emulate CL). Which would mean that willuwontu's answers are all correct.
I'm pretty sure I'm right though - I don't think they'd create a specific DC for a scroll and mention that you might need to emulate an ability score but not mention that you need to emulate a CL. Given how closely the Use Scroll DC (20+CL) mirrors the Emulate Class Feature DC (Level-20) I'm of the opinion that you don't have to make a separate check to UMD caster level. The only way you'd suffer a scroll mishap as a UMD caster is if you were allowed to try to activate a scroll with an emulated caster level of less than the scroll's required amount.
I think 4 is pretty clear. The +2 is only mentioned in the Activate Blindly section. It should only apply to items you've previously attempted to Activate Blindly and only increase your Activate Blindly check.
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I have been working on a guide to UMD and some specific questions.
1) Activate Blindly, what items does this check apply/not apply to?
Some magic items are activated by special words, thoughts, or actions. You can activate such an item as if you were using the activation word, thought, or action, even when you’re not and even if you don’t know it.
If the magic item is spell trigger or spell completion (so like all of them) you can activate it blindly. Activating blindly is done only if you have not identified the magic item or the means to activate it.
2) Mishaps, can they happen on any check to activate an item that fails by 10 or is it only applicable to items "activated blindly"?
If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally risk when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.
This is the only mention* of mishaps in the UMD rules and it all falls under the use of activating blindly. Using a scroll can suffer a mishap if you fail a caster level check and the subsequent wisdom check.
3) Scroll mishaps, can they happen when activating scrolls via UMD, or are they only when you activate a scroll via the "normal" method?
Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
You need to meet four prerequisites to cast from a scroll without any type of check:
1) You must be the correct type of caster as the scroll- arcane caster to an arcane spell, divine caster to a divine spell, psychic caster to a psychic spell. Note that most GMs in my experience disregard this rule for spells and scrolls entirely (and FWIW, in PFS a scroll is considered to be of every spell type for simplicity's sake) so check to see if yours does too.2) The user of the scroll must have that spell on their spell list
3) The user must have a minimum ability score of the type of spell it is (see prereq 1 above- most GMs in my experience will just say you need a minimum mental score to use the scroll): 11 to cast a 1st level spell, 12 to cast a 2nd, etc. Not having the appropriate ability score requires you to make an additional UMD check to emulate an ability score.
4) You must be a minimum caster level of the scroll's caster level.
the UMD check for scrolls only covers the first 2 rules; you still need the minimum mental stat and the minimum caster level. Assuming you meet the mental stat requirement or emulate the ability score, on a successful UMD check you have to make a caster level check if you are not high enough level (which is +0 if you don't have a caster level). So a rogue trying to use a scroll of invisibility has to make a DC 23 UMD check followed by a DC 4 caster level check to succeed at activating the scroll. A level 3 Cleric (who does not have invisibility on their spell list) only has to make the DC 23 UMD check; no caster level check as they already are the minimum caster level of the scroll. Failure of the caster level check is the only thing that would cause a mishap in this situation (for the rogue), and only if they also fail a DC 5 wisdom check afterwards.
4) Does the +2 to activating an item from activating previously apply to wand/staves?
You get a +2 bonus on your Use Magic Device check if you’ve activated the item in question at least once before.
By RAW you only get it when you activate blindly. If you know the wand you have is a wand of invisibility (and know the activation command) you do not get a +2 bonus to using the wand to reach that DC 20, even though in my opinion it totally makes sense to.
*Spymaster's handbook has additional use where you make a UMD check for an intentional mishap but that uses wording similar to activate blindly and is not relevant to the topic
So when activating a scroll or other spell completion item a player may need to make 3 seperate UMD checks and you can still have a mishap? That seems excesive. :( I'll dig into it either and see if I can make is as understandable as I can.
3) Scroll mishaps, can they happen when activating scrolls via UMD, or are they only when you activate a scroll via the "normal" method?
To activate a scroll you only have to do the following:
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items. Note: More rules for activating scrolls here.
This mentions at most making two checks.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap. A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does. If the caster level check fails but no mishap occurs, the scroll is not expended.
These additional rules do not mention UMD at all. These rules only apply if you are a caster of the correct type. You could use UMD to emulate the class feature "Spells" for a particular class, but that would also tie the casting stat of that class. It also opens up scroll mishaps, where UMD failure does not list that in the Use a Scroll: section.
The biggest problem I have with the UMD rules is what the casting stat is for the Use a Scroll: use of UMD? If you must use the stat of the crafter, that that would need to be recorded as part of the scroll's details. It never is, which is why PFS removed the arcane/divine aspect of scrolls. Arcane casters generally use INT or CHA, and divine casters generally use WIS or CHA. Do I need to have all three? And, at one point, we even had CON as a casting stat. So witch stat should be used? It does not say. Monsters usually default to CHA for casting when they are not classed casters, and it is a reasonable choice. As it is also the default stat for UMD, it helps there as well.
@Taudis: Detect Magic and Identify do not reveal command words. Spellcraft does when you make the check. DC is 15 + item's CL.
/cevah
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You're mostly correct on the UMD of scrolls. UMD states that it is to emulate having the spell on your spell list; it does not say you actually activate the scroll with just the UMD check- you still need to make the caster level check if necessary, because of what is quoted below. The caster level check is not necessary if you actually HAVE a caster level greater than or equal to the scroll CL. AND the Use a Scroll part of UMD does specify you still need the appropriate ability score (thus potentially requiring a separate UMD check to emulate that score)
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a scroll mishap. A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.
So at most you're making three checks (Use a scroll, emulate ability score, then CL check) but only the first two are UMD checks. It's why under Activating Blindly it points out the mishap chance for failure on that check stacks with the mishap chance for failing to use a scroll.
And like I said before, most GMs, including official PFS play, completely ignore the requisite mental score, as well as the source of the scroll- if a CL 5 Cleric creates a CL 5 scroll of Bless, and a CL 5 Wizard wants to use it, they don't need to have 11 Wis because they presumably already have at least 11 Int and most GMs don't even remember or bring up the ability score requisite in the first place. The Wizard just needs to make the one UMD check in that case, to activate the scroll.
But I did want to point out all the official rules, because they are there.
The text for Use a scroll is all you need to actually use it. There are no UMD rules anywhere else that I know of. Success means the spell on the scroll is actually cast. It has no mishap text, nor does it mention a caster level check. Therefore, you cannot have a mishap, and you don't need a CL check.
The Activating Scrolls is for using scrolls without UMD. These rules do not apply for UMD use.
Even if you insist that UMD needs to make the CL check, your initial roll already did it. If you don't make this initial roll, you fail to have the spell on your list. Under Activating Scrolls, if the spell is not on your list, you don't get to to point of doing a CL check. You don't get to the point of dealing with scroll mishaps.
I have played the caster stat is your caster stat if you have one, and CHA if you don't.
/cevah
This seems like it should be figured out by now, pathfinder being 10+ years old now and 3.5 older than that.
So for a quick recap:
1) This text only apply to activating blindly, cool. Scrolls and wands can be activated blindly, in which case this text does apply.
2) This apply only with activating blindly.
3) Still debating
4) Only when activating blindly.
5) New Question; When activating an item blindly that has it's own rules, do you roll twice? Or do you just use the Activate Blindly DC? At some point activating blindly would be easier that using a high level scroll the normal UMD way of I'm not mistaken.
5) New Question; When activating an item blindly that has it's own rules, do you roll twice? Or do you just use the Activate Blindly DC? At some point activating blindly would be easier that using a high level scroll the normal UMD way of I'm not mistaken.
I have always treated it as specific overrides general. Therefore, if you are trying to activate a wand or scroll, you use those sections rather than the blindly section.
If you can use a scroll via the activate blindly rules, then you would do it for any scroll of CL 5 or higher, and only have to make a single check. You would not need any casting stat. You would also use this in favor of casting a scroll you could normally cast that was 10 or more CL than you. It would let you cast from any scroll with a casting stat of 12, even if it was a scroll of Wish. This does not seem RAI. Working to get a 24 in UMD is not that hard, thus allowing you to activate any magic item without risk.
Since allowing a scroll to be activated by activate blindly can make it easier than casting a scroll by the two systems that detail scroll casting, I don't think this is correct.
There is, however, a fly in this ointment:
This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally risk when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself.
How can you get a scroll mishap with activate blindly if it is not used on a scroll?
/cevah
@Taudis: Detect Magic and Identify do not reveal command words. Spellcraft does when you make the check. DC is 15 + item's CL.
/cevah
Yes, thank you for making that clearer for readers. I was actually mentioning Detect Magic and Identify because RAW those and Analyze Dweomer are the only tools of item identification that reveal the Command Word (CRB pg 458, under the Command Word section). There's additional Knowledge (Arcana)/(History) DC 30 check to find a Command Word and avoid UMD mishaps if you've identified the item through another means.