Unless a feat says it acts as another feat for purposes of pre-reqs then it would not count. An example would be:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/artful-dodge-combat/
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Keep in mind Piranha Strike doesn't work with all weapons you can use Weapon Finesse with. Just light weapons (and unarmed strike/natural attacks, which count as light weapons). Your Dervish Dancing scimitar build cannot benefit from Piranha Strike.
and no, it does not count as Power Attack for feat prereqs. Fortunately 13 str isn't terribly hard to come by. Maybe a bit harder for a halfling or gnome, though.
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Sorry to derail this a bit, but how does Piranha Strike work with Brawlers Flurry.
I’m uncertain on the off-hand part of it, because Brawlers can use two weapon fighting with just one weapon. So you are really just using one hand and could hold a shield in your off hand while you flurry with your main hand?
And do you get the full benefit of Piranha Strike on all your attacks or only on some of them?
Ask your GM. Seriously, no one knows, because Brawler's Flurry is one the most stupidly worded abilities in all of Pathfinder.
General consent is to ignore all that TWF/mainhand/offhand bull shit, and just treat it as something like Haste. In other words, there is no offhand.
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Ask your GM. Seriously, no one knows, because Brawler's Flurry is one the most stupidly worded abilities in all of Pathfinder.
General consent is to ignore all that TWF/mainhand/offhand bull s@$%, and just treat it as something like Haste. In other words, there is no offhand.
How about PFS, do they have the same consensus?
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A simple way to look at it is if you add at least 1x your modifier to damage (usually Str but can be Dex or even another modifier), it usually does not count as an offhand attack. Offhand attacks almost always deal 0.5x ability modifier. In fact I can’t think of an ability that changes that modifier, except maybe a fringe case with the Dragon Style/Ferocity feats (and even then I’m not sure). Brawlers do not suffer from the offhand drawback when they use Brawlers Flurry, so they would get the full bonus to damage from Piranha Strike/Power Attack with their secondary attacks.
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How about PFS, do they have the same consensus?Ask your GM. Seriously, no one knows, because Brawler's Flurry is one the most stupidly worded abilities in all of Pathfinder.
General consent is to ignore all that TWF/mainhand/offhand bull s@$%, and just treat it as something like Haste. In other words, there is no offhand.
Im not sure what Derklord is going on about no one knowing, Brawlers Flurry is pretty straightforward. You gain secondary attacks just like TWF/Improved/greater at the listed levels, but with three main differences- 1) you must use some combination of monk or close weapons (from the fighter weapon group) or unarmed strike, 2) you may use the same weapon as your primary attacks if you so choose, and 3) you do not suffer offhand damage penalties from these secondary attacks.
Im not sure what Derklord is going on about no one knowing, Brawlers Flurry is pretty straightforward.
So tell my, what penalty is used? Always -2, because it's based on Flurry of Blows? Depending on the sole weapon (-2 if it's light, -4 otherwise) because that one also counts as the off-hand weapon? Or is it always -4 because that's the default that is only lowered when using a light off-hand, and we don't actually have a weapon in the off-hand? Look here for the full argument on that.
Than there's the Improved TWF and Greater TWF that are granted by Brawler's Flurry (BF). Both say you make an attack with your off-hand weapon - what does the Brawler do? The bonus attacks aren't granted by BF, but by the actual feats, so they don't RAW fall under the "only need one weapon" clause. According to this FAQ, you only actually make off-hand attacks when you're using TWF to get more attacks than what you could get with but one weapon, and since BF allows a singular weapon, you're not doing that.
If we can make the attacks with the one weapon we're using, it must count as an off-hand weapon, so by that logic, one could argue that all attacks made with BF only get the reduced Piranha Strike ratio.
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I differentiated between "secondary" attack and offhand attack simply to show I'm talking about an exception to the damage bonus rules for offhand attacks. The bonus attack is still considered "offhand" mechanically. If any one of your offhand attacks use a weapon that isn't in the light category, you take a -4, and if all of your offhand attacks is light it's a -2 on your attack rolls. You can use the same weapon as your primary attacks for your secondary attacks. In this instance, handedness doesn't matter, and you still get the extra attacks from G/I/TWF. Whether this was the writer's intention or not, Brawlers benefit from the TWF feat when flurrying and thus have offhand attacks. All attacks are at a -4/-4 unless their designated offhand attacks are all light category, in which case it's -2/-2. As per the FAQ you just listed, you have to designate what attacks are offhand and what are primary before any of the attack rolls are made. The key difference with Flurry is you can designate any weapon you wield, even if it's already designated as 'primary' or 'offhand.'
Damage modifiers are at 1x regardless of handedness (so no 1.5x str for two-handing a weapon, and no 0.5x Str on an offhand attack)
Though i will amend my previous statement, since rereading the TWF rules, Brawler's Flurry, and Power Attack/Piranha Strike - Because your extra offhand attacks from Brawler's Flurry are still considered offhand, despite having no other penalty to the damage modifier, by RAW you only get 50% bonus from Power Attack/Piranha Strike with those offhand attacks. I don't believe this was intended, but that's RAW for you.
Though i will amend my previous statement, since rereading the TWF rules, Brawler's Flurry, and Power Attack/Piranha Strike (...) I don't believe this was intended, but that's RAW for you.
Thanks, I take that as confirmation that Brawler's Flurry is badly written. For bonus fun, according to your interpretation, some of the attacks trigger both the increased and the decreased Power Attack damage!
Though I must say, you gave the best explanation how Brawler's Flurry works that I have ever seen!
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Though i will amend my previous statement, since rereading the TWF rules, Brawler's Flurry, and Power Attack/Piranha Strike (...) I don't believe this was intended, but that's RAW for you.Thanks, I take that as confirmation that Brawler's Flurry is badly written. For bonus fun, according to your interpretation, some of the attacks trigger both the increased and the decreased Power Attack damage!
Though I must say, you gave the best explanation how Brawler's Flurry works that I have ever seen!
Thank you :)
And yeah, I concede that Brawler's Flurry should be worded much differently. I'm of the opinion that the writers MEANT to make it a straight -2 as if all the attacks are light, and in home games from now on I will be ruling that way, but that is merely personal belief.
For Power Attack, however, the condition for increased damage is it must be two-handed AND increase the str bonus by 1.5x to get the increased power attack damage. And as Brawler's Flurry does not let you add 1.5x str damage even if the weapon is 2-handed- it's always 1x- you wouldn't get the increased P.A damage.
*EDIT* Just kidding, misread the feat.
The reduced P.A damage qualification is just that it's an offhand attack or a secondary natural attack, regardless of the strength dmg modifier.
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Thanks to both of you for your replies. It does sound overly complicated and at the risk table variations.
Do you know if there is a PFS consensus at least?
I've spent the last half hour scouring the forums for an official response and haven't found one. Unfortunately that means it's ultimately GM fiat.
Though I've presented my case fairly well, I think. I'll lay out my evidence:
FAQ Derklord posted earlier, not going to bother quoting it
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
So first off you need to be wielding an offhand weapon for the extra attack. For the purposes of Unarmed Strikes a brawler is always wielding their unarmed strikes and can be used as an offhand attack.
Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.
So a brawler starts brawler's flurry, gains the TWF feat. Technically doesn't gain an extra attack because they can already make an offhand attack, but gains the reduced penalty. Based on the FAQ linked, they have to choose what weapon will be the offhand attack and what will be the primary attack. Brawler's Flurry specifically states it can be the same weapon, but designation must be made regardless, and must be done before attack rolls ensue. Also there is a restriction on what weapons can be used for this ability but that's pretty clear already
The penalties for TWF are reduced by 2 on the primary attack(s) and 6 by the offhand attack(s), putting the brawler's attacks at -4/-4. Because you are using TWF rules, if the pre-designated offhand attacks (ALL offhand attacks, if using different weapons) are in the light category, the TWF penalties are reduced by a further 2, putting the attacks at -2/-2.As the brawler levels, they gain access to Improved and Greater TWF which explicitly does grant extra offhand attacks following the same rules above, and regardless if the brawler uses the same limb for such offhand attacks as their primary attacks.
Finally,
This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands.
I had actually misread this at first and was thinking the 1.5x was required no matter what, but that's actually just for natural attacks. So 2-handing a weapon while flurrying does indeed grant the extra 50% bonus damage from P.A. So if you flurry with a heavy shield at a -4/-4 (at, say, level 2) your bonus damage from power attack is +3/+1.
Piranha Strike has the same issue with the offhand bonus damage as Power Attack, but also doesn't grant bonus damage for 2-handing at all.