Damage and Grapple

[Newmainium]

For some reason I can't find a definitive answer on this...
How much damage would you do if you have someone grappled and choose to inflict "damage" ?
I am a level 8 unchained monk. So 1d10 damage with unarmed and strength bonus of 5.
Do you add bonus damage from things like amulet of mighty fists?
Or if you have other sources of bonus damage, like inspire courage for example?

Can I spend a ki point to make an extra attack?

A few other questions I couldn't find answers to...
Can I use power attack with this?
Do I have to make an attack roll? Or is the damage automatic?
Could I apply the affects of cournugan smash and hurtful?
If you have multiple attacks because of haste or high BAB, do you inflict multiple instances of damage?

If you have greater grapple, can you choose to inflict damage twice?
And could you instead, attempt to pin AND inflict damage with greater grapple?

The Bonebreaker feat, seems to say that you can also attempt a stunning fist when you apply damage?

Thank you for helping me clarify this..

[Ferious Thune]

For most of those questions, there's no official answer. But Mark Seifter has commented before on the forums and most recently on his Ask Mark twitch show.

You have to make an attack roll in the form of the CMB check to maintain the grapple. You don't need an additional roll on top of that. Maintaining is a standard action, unless you have a feat or ability that lets you use another action to do so (Greater Grapple, Rapid Grappler, etc.) That is pretty established in the rules.

The general interpretation, backed up by unofficial designer comment, is that you can add anything to damage that you would normally add to your unarmed strike. So strength, amulet of mighty fists, inspire courage, power attack (provided you took the penalty on the CMB check), or anything else that you would add to an unarmed strike (or whatever weapon you are using).

If you have Greater Grapple, you may choose to inflict damage twice. It requires two CMB checks, one for each instance of damage. Rapid Grappler would let you make a third, provided your Greater Grapple succeeds, at -5. Each roll you may choose which of the actions from grapple to take. So you could Move action maintain to Pin, then Standard action maintain to damage in the same round.

*Note* This is a somewhat disputed point, but Mark reaffirmed it on his twitch episode. You cannot maintain a grapple in the same round that you initiate a grapple. So even with Greater Grapple, you cannot start a grapple with someone and then pin them in the same round. You have to wait until the second round to make a maintain roll. But at that point, you can maintain multiple times if you have the feats to do so. At least one of your maintain checks must succeed before the end of your turn, or the target is automatically released from the grapple.

Cornugon Smash and Hurtful... I believe both should work, provided you took the power attack penalty on your CMB roll to maintain the grapple. Hurtful would be a separate attack roll against AC, not a CMB check.

You do not get extra attacks from haste or BAB, because you are not performing a full-attack action. You are performing a standard action CMB check, or a move action check with Greater Grapple. You are not making a full-attack.

[Newmainium]

That was very helpful, thank you.

[Scott Wilhelm]

You would do your Unarmed Strike Damage.

You would get your Strength Bonus to Damage.

You would get your Damage Bonus from your AoMF, but not the Attack Bonus.

You would benefit from Inspire Courage.

You can use Power Attack, taking a penalty to your Grapple Check just like you would your regular Attack Roll: a Grapple Check is an Attack Roll, and a Damage Roll is a Damage Roll. You would get the regular bonus of Power Attack even though Unarmed Strikes are Light Weapons.

Cornugan Smash should work normally with Grappling and Power Attack.

Hurtful should work.

Haste will not normally give you multiple Grapple checks. Haste will give you an extra attack on your Full Attack Action, but normally a Grapple Check is a Standard Action. You still get the +1 Attack and +1 AC. Your +1 AC Bonus should apply to your CMD.

Greater Grapple states that lets you make 2 checks/round to harm your opponent, so yes, and yes.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Ferious Thune wrote:

*Note* This is a somewhat disputed point, but Mark reaffirmed it on his twitch episode. You cannot maintain a grapple in the same round that you initiate a grapple. So even with Greater Grapple, you cannot start a grapple with someone and then pin them in the same round. You have to wait until the second round to make a maintain roll. But at that point, you can maintain multiple times if you have the feats to do so. At least one of your maintain checks must succeed before the end of your turn, or the target is automatically released from the grapple.

It is disputed indeed!

I was not aware of Mark on Twitch. Was Mark making an official ruling on his twitch episode?

[Scott Wilhelm]

The extra attack from spending Ki only applies to Flurry of Blows, which you can do while Grappled, but if you were the one in control of the Grapple, you would not normally be able to maintain the Grapple and Flurry in the same round. You would normally have to release the Grapple unless you were doing something weird.

[Ferious Thune]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

*Note* This is a somewhat disputed point, but Mark reaffirmed it on his twitch episode. You cannot maintain a grapple in the same round that you initiate a grapple. So even with Greater Grapple, you cannot start a grapple with someone and then pin them in the same round. You have to wait until the second round to make a maintain roll. But at that point, you can maintain multiple times if you have the feats to do so. At least one of your maintain checks must succeed before the end of your turn, or the target is automatically released from the grapple.

It is disputed indeed!

I was not aware of Mark on Twitch. Was Mark making an official ruling on his twitch episode?

No. In that particular episode, he's imparting the information that would have been in his grapple blog, had he ever written it, based on conversations he had with Jason Bulmahn soon after Mark joined Paizo. But much like the forum posts, it's unofficial information, so it's up to the individual GM to decide whether to use it in their game.

EDIT: In part, answering questions on twitch is his way of keeping the PF1 FAQs going. He's answered a LOT of questions, not just about grapple, and will take questions in his Ask Mark thread for consideration in future episodes. But they are not official FAQs issued by Paizo. Just the only thing we're likely to get for a while.

[Newmainium]

I appreciate all the responses. I definitely understand grappling much better.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Ferious Thune wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

*Note* This is a somewhat disputed point, but Mark reaffirmed it on his twitch episode. You cannot maintain a grapple in the same round that you initiate a grapple. So even with Greater Grapple, you cannot start a grapple with someone and then pin them in the same round. You have to wait until the second round to make a maintain roll. But at that point, you can maintain multiple times if you have the feats to do so. At least one of your maintain checks must succeed before the end of your turn, or the target is automatically released from the grapple.

It is disputed indeed!

I was not aware of Mark on Twitch. Was Mark making an official ruling on his twitch episode?

No. In that particular episode, he's imparting the information that would have been in his grapple blog, had he ever written it, based on conversations he had with Jason Bulmahn soon after Mark joined Paizo. But much like the forum posts, it's unofficial information, so it's up to the individual GM to decide whether to use it in their game.

EDIT: In part, answering questions on twitch is his way of keeping the PF1 FAQs going. He's answered a LOT of questions, not just about grapple, and will take questions in his Ask Mark thread for consideration in future episodes. But they are not official FAQs issued by Paizo. Just the only thing we're likely to get for a while.

Within the confines of OP's question, you and I seem to be in almost complete agreement except on 1 point. I think I have demonstrated where we disagree, and I am willing to assume that the OP understands that my views are strong held and strongly supported: I don't feel the need to re-have our argument unless the OP would like it. Here's a link to our last debate on the topic if Newmainium or anyone else wants to review it.