Sources of circumstance bonus - Harrying Fire

[Freeloader215]

Hello!

Primer:
- Circumstance Bonus - "Circumstance bonuses arise from specific conditional factors affecting the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with other circumstance bonuses unless they arise from essentially the same source, in which case they do not stack."

- Spell: Wisp Ally - "...the wisp provides your choice of either harrying fire or covering fire against the enemy each round on your turn..."

- Spell: Microbot Assault - "...microbot cloud grants harrying fire against the foes in its spaces."

- Harrying Fire - "You can use your standard action to make a ranged attack that distracts a foe in your line of effect. Make an attack roll against AC 15. If you hit, you deal no damage, but the next ally to attack that foe gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her next attack roll, as long as that attack occurs before your next turn."

Situation:
Mechanic chooses to take the Harrying Fire action on Enemy 1 and succeeds.
Mystic casts Wisp Ally on Enemy 1 and chooses to apply Harrying Fire.
Technomancer casts Microbot Assault on Enemy 1 which applies Harrying and Covering Fire
Soldier Attacks Enemy 1

Question 1 - What is the soldiers circumstance bonus to hit?

Question 2 - What is a "source" as referenced in Circumstance Bonus?

The down and dirty:
Is the condition Harrying Fire the source? Meaning that only one instance of Harrying Fire can be applied at a time from any source.

Is the spell Wisp Ally or Microbot Assault the source? Meaning that multiples of the same spell don't stack but Wisp Ally and Microbot Assault do.

Is the PC who took the action the source? Meaning that two instances of Harrying Fire applied in any way(that does not consume the previous application) from separate characters would stack.

Is the individual action of the PC the source? Meaning that all instances of Harrying Fire applied to the same target stack(that do not consume the previous Harrying Fire), even two instances from the same PC(If this is even possible).

Question 3 - Where did you find the answer to question 2 in an official format?

[HammerJack]

Question 3: N/A. "Source" for conditional bonuses does not have a rigid definition, since circumstance is, aside from some tools and a few things like harrying fire, the bonus type used for all the edge cases the rules couldn't cover.

Question 2: Treating Harrying Fire as the source seems most consistent with the way the rest of the system works.

Question 1: +2

[SuperBidi]

Freeloader215 wrote:

Question 1 - What is the soldiers circumstance bonus to hit?

Your Soldier has Harrying Fire (from 3 sources) on the target, so he has +2 to hit.

Harrying Fire is a state, like Flanked, Fatigued, Flat-Footed. You can't "double flank" an enemy, even if you have 2 sources of flank. It's the same for Harrying Fire.

[Freeloader215]

Ok, follow up, harrying fire say it provides +2 to the next attack, would the next attack consume all instances of harrying fire despite only providing a +2 bonus?

[Garretmander]

Freeloader215 wrote:

Ok, follow up, harrying fire say it provides +2 to the next attack, would the next attack consume all instances of harrying fire despite only providing a +2 bonus?

You could rule it that way, but I would run it as it's like being entangled by multiple sources, then one source disappearing.

If they're being harried by three different things, the next three attacks get the benefit of harrying fire.

I don't believe there is a straight yes or no to that specific circumstance.

[SuperBidi]

Freeloader215 wrote:

Ok, follow up, harrying fire say it provides +2 to the next attack, would the next attack consume all instances of harrying fire despite only providing a +2 bonus?

Yes. It would be a house rule to consider there are "instances" of Harrying Fire. Also, it may generate future rules issues if you start going that way (if a monster is double stunned, does it last more rounds, for example), so, I wouldn't rule it.

Also, if your whole party is using Harrying Fire but your Soldier, you are in a very strange situation. Most classes can shoot on their own, and it's more efficient than Harrying Fire.

[Freeloader215]

Anecdote: I am a PC in a dead suns campaign. Mystic Overlord connected focused on mind effecting/debuffs. Anyone who played dead suns can tell you that's not an optimal build for that AP for spoiler reasons. Oftentimes my opener is Wisp Ally(which at this point lasts for 6 rounds at my level) and then the next round apply harry fire. Our technomancer recent learned microbots which lasts concentration+1.

So it's not that multiple party members are using Harrying Fire in place of an attack(that wouldn't work as the next attempted "attack" of Harrying fire would consume the previous). It's that wisp ally seems like a no-brainer to toss on as an opener when the creatures are immune to my more powerful spells.

I'm not interested in getting into a discussion on tactics here. I just wanted to provide some perspective.

I would wisp round 1, and if I didn't have a better option I would Harrying and refresh wisp harrying for the next round. I now know they don't stack so I'll just use covering fire for the wisp or vise versa. In a recent encounter(the GM added) we were fighting some dudes with seriously high AC and hoped to counter that with these multiple stacks of harrying.

[Ravingdork]

Isn't harrying fire just aid another? Don't aid another attempts always stack, up to any limits set by the GM?

Or am I still stuck in my Pathfinder grognard ways?

[Freeloader215]

Ravingdork - Aid Another is only for skill checks in Starfinder unfortunately

[SuperBidi]

Freeloader215 wrote:

Anecdote: I am a PC in a dead suns campaign. Mystic Overlord connected focused on mind effecting/debuffs. Anyone who played dead suns can tell you that's not an optimal build for that AP for spoiler reasons.

I'm playing Dead Suns (just finished the third part) with a pure caster Mystic Overlord and it's a very valid build for this AP. My impact in combat is on par with our Operative.

Not having a better option than Wisp Ally or Harrying Fire is, in my opinion, an issue.

[Freeloader215]

Like I said, I'm not interested in getting into a discussion on tactics or the effectiveness of any action. There is too much variance in ability scores/builds/party makeup. It all has to do with my spell load out which I am happy with on an RP level. There are multiple spoilery fights where opponents are immune to certain spells. I have many of those spells.

[HammerJack]

Ruleswise, I believe you're currently in a situation that seems to come up a lot with operatives choosing to apply flat-footed, and envoys choosing Clever attack (to apply flat-footed vs attacks only), where your support actions are too similar to be used together, unless you target separate enemies, or someone changes.

[Freeloader215]

I agree! Thanks for everyones input. I think this is squared away and it's time for me to reassess

[Nimor Starseeker]

SuperBidi wrote:

Freeloader215 wrote:

Question 1 - What is the soldiers circumstance bonus to hit?

Your Soldier has Harrying Fire (from 3 sources) on the target, so he has +2 to hit.

Harrying Fire is a state, like Flanked, Fatigued, Flat-Footed. You can't "double flank" an enemy, even if you have 2 sources of flank. It's the same for Harrying Fire.

You’ve made a really good point on how conditions don’t stack, but I don’t see Harrying/covering fire on the list of conditions. It is described as circumstance bonus. For multiple characters to spend an action to provide this bonus I would not say would be overpowering if those bonuses stacked. Burning conditions from multiple sources stack as long as they are from different sources. I’m not entirely convinced that harrying/covering won’t stack, but I am 100% behind you on the fact that you cannot be double flanked.

[Freeloader215]

Wayyyy to bring back my hope Nimor!

[Nimor Starseeker]

Circumstance bonuses came up in my group recently, and I’m still not sure about this one, but I’m more in favor of letting it stack.

[SuperBidi]

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

Circumstance bonuses came up in my group recently, and I’m still not sure about this one, but I’m more in favor of letting it stack.

Well, nothing stacks by default. You can't be double flanked, you can't have double concealment, have twice the same spell or condition. I would not understand why you can have twice Harrying Fire.

[Lavabeing]

SuperBidi wrote:

Freeloader215 wrote:

Question 1 - What is the soldiers circumstance bonus to hit?

Your Soldier has Harrying Fire (from 3 sources) on the target, so he has +2 to hit.

Harrying Fire is a state, like Flanked, Fatigued, Flat-Footed. You can't "double flank" an enemy, even if you have 2 sources of flank. It's the same for Harrying Fire.

I agree with the final ruling but am not sure if there are official rules on states. I would rule that the harrying fire provides the circumstance bonus from " a ranged attack that distracts a foe". I would rule that additional harrying fire effects arise from the same type of effect and therefore don't stack.

I find this to be similair to multiple enemies all flanking one character simultaneously, but the bonus they receive doesn't increase with additional flanking enemies.

[Freeloader215]

I play warhammer so I know what a rabbit hole rules as intended is.... that being said I feel like there is a difference between 1 person shooting at you to distract and 50 people doing it. I'm sure at some point there is diminishing returns and the dude is just gunna keep his head down. But I feel like that number is greater than one.

This is also reflected in aid another saying the GM can declare how many people can aid. If a friend is hanging off a cliff and needs help climbing, eventually adding one more person helping wont make a difference.

[Ravingdork]

Yeah, if it applies a condition and isn't a reworded form of aid another, then I agree it wouldn't stack.

[Nimor Starseeker]

SuperBidi wrote:

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

Circumstance bonuses came up in my group recently, and I’m still not sure about this one, but I’m more in favor of letting it stack.

Well, nothing stacks by default. You can't be double flanked, you can't have double concealment, have twice the same spell or condition. I would not understand why you can have twice Harrying Fire.

You are absolutely right, the conditions you have mentioned do not stack. However Harrying Fire is not a condition, it’s a circumstance bonus. I did notice the line on pg 273 saying Conditions are circumstances, but that does not mean all circumstances are conditions. Harrying fire is not in the conditions overview.

Harrying/Covering fire on pg 246-247 says that they are circumstance bonuses and those bonuses may stack. It’s up to the GameMaster/StarLord to decide how many instances of those circumstance bonuses can stack according to pg 266 and as long as the sources are different.