Illusions, Detect Magic, and Disbelief

[baggageboy]

Hello all, I'm hoping you can help me figure out how detect magic and illusions interact regarding a save to disbelieve.

So here's an example situation, I have a elf character with detect magic as a constant ability. He sees another character concealed by a cap of disguise. Because of circumstances he takes time to examine the illusioned character closely (effectively spending an action to do so) and see's that there is magic afoot. He spends more time examining and realizes that is it is a faint aura of illusion per detect magic and a spellcraft check. Also he fails the will save to disbelieve the illusion.

The way I dealt with this was to say he could see that the illusioned character was shrouded by some illusion, but that he couldn't see through it.

Does my character then receive additional save attempts as he examines the illusioned character more closely?

Did I do it wrong?

Do you see illusions as magic automatically since he always see's with detect magic? The racial trait is fey-sighted if that matters.

[Dasrak]

baggageboy wrote:

Does my character then receive additional save attempts as he examines the illusioned character more closely?

A spell gives you one save, unless explicitly stated otherwise. If you blow it, then you're done. Nothing about illusions changes this.

Secondly, the Disguise Self spell (the Hat of the Disguise works like the spell) doesn't let you see through the disguise on a successful save; it only allows you to recognize it as an illusion when you save. If you failed your save, all you know is that detect magic is registering an aura of illusion on the character you're inspecting and would have no indication as to what kind of illusion magic that might be (remember, a potion of invisibility technically has an aura of illusion that pings on detect magic; the mere presence of such an aura isn't particularly meaningful).

[blahpers]

You cannot disbelieve disguise self. A saving throw merely reveals that the creature is under a glamer.

Knowledge (arcana) can identify a specific spell effect in place with a DC 20 + spell level). Even then, though, that would only verify that the disguised creature was in fact under the influence of the disguise self spell--it wouldn't reveal what the creature normally looks like nor even the extent of the disguise.

[baggageboy]

Dasrak wrote:

Secondly, the Disguise Self spell (the Hat of the Disguise works like the spell) doesn't let you see through the disguise on a successful save; it only allows you to recognize it as an illusion when you save. If you failed your save, all you know is that detect magic is registering an aura of illusion on the character you're inspecting and would have no indication as to what kind of illusion magic that might be (remember, a potion of invisibility technically has an aura of illusion that pings on detect magic; the mere presence of such an aura isn't particularly meaningful).

Thank you for your response, I have a couple follow on questions then.

- What do aura's look like?
I assume the are a "light" that emanates from the surface of the source. So in the case of the cap I'd know immediately upon seeing it that the hat was magic, and then with inspection could determine what kind of aura that created. I'd know it wasn't from a potion in a pocket.

- My next question is about permanent illusions like the hat. It doesn't seem reasonable that they would only give one save ever. RAW doesn't need to be reasonable, but I just want to make sure my understanding is correct.
For instance, if a guard were to fail a save to see though this hat, that guard would still believe the illusion if his buddy told him it was in fact illusion. He also wouldn't get a save if he were to interact with the same illusion a year later.

Edit: I should also state that while I used the cap of human guise as an example I'd like to understand the ramifications of having "detect magic as a constant spell-like ability" and it's interactions with illusions in general.

[Thedmstrikes]

Constant is synonymous with "at-will" and neither of them allow something without the use of an action, usually a standard action. The key to avoiding the Detect magic is sight based trap is to understand that the PC has to concentrate to make it work. A character does not walk around all the time seeing magic through their eyes like we see the light spectrum, they have to concentrate to override the light spectrum (or their darkvision if that is in effect instead) and then the "magic" coalesces into one of the three manifestations the character can get from concentrating from one to three rounds. Using your example, both the hat of disguise and the wearer of the hat would have the glow of magic about them in round one (detect the presence of magic, how that works in so far as description is largely left to you). In round two, the strengths of the two auras will differentiate by one being brighter than the other (usually, a magic item that produces an effect is more powerful than the effect, but not always. There are five degrees of effect from something low powered to the presence of deity level magic or an artifact). In the final round, the sight will grant the character with the school of the most powerful aura. Remember that it is a 60 foot cone, so if a crowd is in front of the character with a lot of magic, then they could be subject to some form of sensory overload (similar to that which occurs when one walks into bright light from a dark room) making it difficult to make out everything and perhaps a perception check will be called for to see the exact thing the character wanted to see before it is lost in the crowd. Just some other things to think about as your PC wanders through your world with enhanced sight.
Also, typically, when a PC is presented with incontrovertible proof of an illusion, they are granted a second save and at a bonus (assuming they have not already tried a save in the first place). This usually happens when one PC makes a save and announces to the rest of the party that there is an illusion, where it is and that it is not real, but, if the PC with the magic sight finds a source of illusion magic, it is not out of the question to rule that as proof of existence. There are many ways for that proof to manifest itself, movies like to use the presence and absence of shadows as the indicator (something seems off about that guy as his shadow is so much different than his actual form, etc.), maybe from a modified perception check or even the result of an opposed bluff check that the PC wins and gets that feeling something is off.

[baggageboy]

Thedmstrikes wrote:

Constant is synonymous with "at-will" and neither of them allow something without the use of an action, usually a standard action. The key to avoiding the Detect magic is sight based trap is to understand that the PC has to concentrate to make it work. A character does not walk around all the time seeing magic through their eyes like we see the light spectrum, they have to concentrate to override the light spectrum (or their darkvision if that is in effect instead) and then the "magic" coalesces into one of the three manifestations the character can get from concentrating from one to three rounds.

There is most certainly a difference between a constant ability and an at will ability. Link to Universal Monster Rules Spell-like Ability

Specifically it says that "Reactivating a constant spell-like ability is a swift action" which reinforces the idea that a constant ability is always active unless specifically suppressed. This is very different than an at will ability which would require activation each time it is to be used.

Also, though it has no real impact on the rules the flavor text for fey-sighted strongly implies that the elf sees magic all the time.

[Dasrak]

baggageboy wrote:

- What do aura's look like?

I assume the are a "light" that emanates from the surface of the source. So in the case of the cap I'd know immediately upon seeing it that the hat was magic, and then with inspection could determine what kind of aura that created. I'd know it wasn't from a potion in a pocket.

That's up to you as the GM to decide.

baggageboy wrote:

- My next question is about permanent illusions like the hat. It doesn't seem reasonable that they would only give one save ever. RAW doesn't need to be reasonable, but I just want to make sure my understanding is correct.

For instance, if a guard were to fail a save to see though this hat, that guard would still believe the illusion if his buddy told him it was in fact illusion. He also wouldn't get a save if he were to interact with the same illusion a year later.

I would rule that you'd get a new save only if they changed the disguise (since that would effectively a new illusion at that point).

Just being told something is an illusion isn't enough to disbelieve it, although it will give you a save to disbelieve if you haven't already gotten one.

baggageboy wrote:

I'd like to understand the ramifications of having "detect magic as a constant spell-like ability" and it's interactions with illusions in general.

It means that you'd detect an aura of illusion magic, nothing more. The character could then investigate further, which would trigger the save to disbelieve.