I was advised to move this over here.
Alright, so I know there's been plenty of threads on this topic, but none that could answer the question I was seeking an answer to. I've been all over the magic item creation rules, and tried various methods, but I'm looking for some opinions. I know what the deal is for pricing most magic items, and even for combining magic items, but what about making what are just improved versions of magic items that don't quite advance logically? For instance, what about a Sash of the War Champion that is twice as powerful? What about Muleback Cords that increase Strength only for carrying capacity by 10 instead 8? Or maybe Wings of Flying with a 50 foot fly speed? What about moving an item to a different slot, like putting the effect of Muleback Cords on an amulet for the neck slot? I've been looking for a thread to answer these but I can't find one with a good example. Should I just spitball these numbers or does anyone have a better idea? I'm open to suggestions.
Anyone? I already had someone recommend that I use 3.5's idea for switching slots which is a 50% price increase. I'm still looking for advice on the other ideas.
There are no rules for this in PF, so you are ineluctably in homebrew territory.
Although you could possibly figure out a mathematical formula based on, say, the progression of cost for magic weapons and extrapolate from that, you're going to do just as well "spitballing" it.
This said, you might want to put some limits on "improving" existing non-formulaic powers. Suddenly having a 500-foot fly speed instead of 30 or 50 feet might just be a step too far. When you start "spitballing" stuff that's flat out better than existing spells and gear, you're definitely heading into munchkin territory. You might enjoy that play style, but I like to think that Pathfinder remains more true to the old grognard roots than that.
At the end of the day, if you are the DM, you can decree whatever pricing guidelines and possible "improvement" levels that you like.
If you're not the DM, good luck with that. <g>
On the flight speed in particular there are a few examples you might use for ideas on pricing. A racing broom of flying (as seen in Harry Potter) is an upgraded broom of flying, a feather token (floating feather) is a downgraded potion of fly and lesser wings of flying with 30', poor flight exist. I might make wings of flying with 50', good flight maybe 45K based on these; YMMV.
A sash of the war champion which gives +8 rather than +4 levels is a +2 rather than +1 bonus, which would usually mean 4x the cost.
There's no good comparison for the muleback cords. +8 Str for carrying is 3x carrying capacity, +10 Str is 4x. I might take that to give +50% or +100% cost dependng on how I felt at the time.
In other words yes there is a lot of spitballing involved and reasonable people can disagree.
Thanks for the advice. I was told to move this either into advice or homebrew, but I thought this was something similar enough to try advice first. Yes, I am the DM, and I was worried that just trying to figure it from scratch was my only real option. I wanted to know if anyone had any ideas, because I know there are no real rules for this, so that I could not only price different versions of current items, but other items of my players or my own design in the future. That is definitely homebrew territory, but for now I was just looking into advice for item pricing in general. As for the pricing itself, well, people disagreeing is nothing new to me. Sometimes I even encourage it to start a discussion, so long as it doesn't get out of control. If everyone just agreed with the first thing said, there would be a lot of poor ideas. I'll try those suggestions and see how they compare. And yes, I am a little bit of a grognard mentally, so I don't do things like this very often.
IMHO there are already a *lot* of dodgy magic items in the Pathfinder game, and rather than try to further upgrade existing items to give even more bonuses, it might be better to just find other ways of doing what you want. If a 30-foot fly speed doesn't feel fast enough, maybe it's time to get a flying mount that goes faster right out of the gate. Or use spell effects like dimension door or teleport to get somewhere really fast.
See, someone pointed out the racing broom which I didn't even know existed. I like how this item lets you go fast, but spells out limitations and drawbacks on that faster flight, rather than just handing out super-speed with no downside.
I would suggest following that model. If you allow an "improved" item in your game, also include logical limits or some potentially negative effect to counterbalance the good stuff you're handing out.
My own biggest bit of advice is start "too" expensive and work back. It's always easier and less aggravating (for players and DM) all round to give more down the road than take stuff back later. Its the gaming corollary of telling someone it'll be a 20 minute wait time and its actually a 10 minute wait :).
See, someone pointed out the racing broom which I didn't even know existed. I like how this item lets you go fast, but spells out limitations and drawbacks on that faster flight, rather than just handing out super-speed with no downside.
I would suggest following that model. If you allow an "improved" item in your game, also include logical limits or some potentially negative effect to counterbalance the good stuff you're handing out.
Those are probably some sound pieces of advice. It probably is better to start out larger in price first. I think I'll try that since giving good news is always received better than giving bad. As for what to do with improved items, I have always been a fan of adding large drawbacks to powerful abilities, items, and characters. Doing that with improved versions of a wondrous item makes a lot of sense. I'll see what I can think up.
While there are some things that are linear, most things that have a variable number bonus available use the squared progression.
So, doubling the sash bones? 4x price.
Slower Wings of Flying? (50^2/60^2)x price (.6945x)
Changing cords from 8 to 10? (10^2/8^2)x price (1.5625x)
As a GM, I would not allow the slower wings for a price savings. I would see it as being too much gaming the system. For the other item, I would require the PC to wait while these were crafted since they would not normally be available.
For relocating the slot, there is no coded price increase. 3.5 had a +50 for some options, but that was not carried over.
In all cases, you need the GM to approve these.
/cevah
The usual reason for wanting to relocate an ability to a different slot is because the original slot is already taken, and the guidelines provide a means to do that at a +50% premium--doubling up abilities on the same slot. So if you don't want a cloak of the bat because you already have a +4 cloak of resistance, you don't need to move one to another slot--just double it up on the same item.
It's actually better than the relocation since you only use up one slot for two abilities. The drawback is that it probably has to be custom crafted, and the items can't be separately replaced or traded. But pricewise, it's a reasonable deal, and I can't think of any real ways to break relocation @ +50% that aren't already equally broken by doubling up @ +50%.