Dex bonus to AC and Dex penalties

[MagusBlackwind]

So if you take any Dex penalties is that counted as losing your Dex bonus to AC or does it have to be a full-on loss of Dex bonus such as being flat-footed?

[Melkiador]

It's tricky game terminology, but I'd say that a penalty does not count as "losing your Dex bonus to AC".

Think of the case where your dexterity is 9, and you take a dex penalty. In that case you wouldn't have lost any bonus, since you were already at a negative.

[MrCharisma]

Being flat-footed is a seperate condition to having 10 DEX.

Nimble Nick has 12 DEX and gets hit by something that causes 3 points of DEX damage/drain. He loses 2 points of AC, but he doesn't start taking sneak-attack damage from any rogue who attacks. Likewise Nick can still make 1 attack of opportunity per turn.

Nick then gets into a new combat amd loses initiative, meaning he is now flat-footed. He would lose his DEX "Bonus" to AC, but he doesn't have a bonus, he has a penalty. This means his AC stays the same. While he's flat-footed he loses the ability to make AoO's, and if he's attacked by a Rogue he will take the sneak-attack damage.

[MagusBlackwind]

MrCharisma wrote:

Being flat-footed is a seperate condition to having 10 DEX.

Nimble Nick has 12 DEX and gets hit by something that causes 3 points of DEX damage/drain. He loses 2 points of AC, but he doesn't start taking sneak-attack damage from any rogue who attacks. Likewise Nick can still make 1 attack of opportunity per turn.

Nick then gets into a new combat amd loses initiative, meaning he is now flat-footed. He would lose his DEX "Bonus" to AC, but he doesn't have a bonus, he has a penalty. This means his AC stays the same. While he's flat-footed he loses the ability to make AoO's, and if he's attacked by a Rogue he will take the sneak-attack damage.

Ok but if he's grappling and takes a Dex penalty to AC is that losing your Dex bonus? And thus all other things dependent upon not losing your Dex bonus?

[Volkard Abendroth]

MagusBlackwind wrote:

Ok but if he's grappling and takes a Dex penalty to AC is that losing your Dex bonus? And thus all other things dependent upon not losing your Dex bonus?

No, a grappled character is not flat-footed. He does not lose his DEX bonus, he takes a -4 penalty.

Grappled wrote:

Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity

A pinned character, however...

Pinned wrote:

A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.

[MrCharisma]

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

MagusBlackwind wrote:

Ok but if he's grappling and takes a Dex penalty to AC is that losing your Dex bonus? And thus all other things dependent upon not losing your Dex bonus?

No, a grappled character is not flat-footed. He does not lose his DEX bonus, he takes a -4 penalty.

Grappled wrote:

Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity

A pinned character, however...

Pinned wrote:

A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.

All correct.

It's important to note (again) that a character who's grappled and pinned loses their Dex "BONUS" to AC, but if they have a penalty they keep that. Thus a creature with 12 DEX (+1AC) who is grappled would drop to 8 DEX (-1AC). If they were then pinned they would become flat-footed, but they would retain the -1 penalty to AC from 8 DEX. If an ally cast Cat's Grace on the pinned character, their DEX would go back to 12 (+1AC). In this case the character would lose the -1 Penalty to AC, but would not regain their +1AC since they Pinned condition denies them their DEX bonus.

[Lucy_Valentine]

It may help to think of it in terms of fiction? Basically the condition of being denied your dex to AC is about circumstances. Some effect or situation is stopping the person from moving effectively. This is different from just being clumsy (low dex modifier). A clumsy person can still evade well enough to make it hard to hit them in the eye.