So the anniversary edition was published in 2012
Without getting into a large debate over power creep in pathfinder (which seems to exist but not to the extent of 3.5) - to what extent would allowing post 2012 content mess with the balance of this AP - if at all?
Naturally there is the point that there won’t be items written with the hybrid and occult classes in mind. But would any of them or the more unusual feats or archetypes drastically break the AP as far as anyone could tell?
If I ever ran this I would probably use unchained but apply it evenly to NPCs as well (i usually replace rogue weapon finesse with iron will or toughness for ease). Tsuto becomes a little more interesting as both his classes become unchained
What do people think? Anything to worry about?
Gunslingers and alchemists. So many of the monsters rely on natural armor bonuses, which means any class that can reliably target Touch AC will only miss on a natural 1. (I have learned this the hard way as GM, but I still have fun anyways)
I would definitely not underestimate the post-2012 content, but by the same token, I'd use it to the hilt.
Remember a golden rule of GMing: if they players can do it, so can you. :P
I'd definitely re-work a few encounters and re-train levels for some bosses. You see a lot of Fighters early on and in Chapter 3, but you can definitely mix in ranged versions, Brawlers, or even have fun with Bloodrager.
One thing I did was re-train the main villain of Chapter 1 as a full Warpriest. Granted, this was after the party redeemed them and I realized Warpriest came out after the campaign book; the NPC was level 11 at the time. But she's originally shown as a Fighter/Cleric build, so... why not?
P.S.: If you're going to use newer books, definitely look at re-doing some spell lists...
I thought that by and large spells were one of the few things where the most powerful versions are still in core?
I feel like I glanced at Warpriest for Book 1 boss a while back and they seemed to lose power. But that was a quick look.
As to Alchemists - I would be uncomfortable saying No to APG content as the AP revision was post APG. Also they *seem* a little more limited on the touch AC front than gunslingers as they will eventually run out of bombs
Ultimate combat classes I have always considered optional content as a GM personally - rightly or wrongly
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I understand the principle of if players can GMs can but I was mainly interested in what would work with minimal changes and extra work on top of what might already be needed
As an aside I threw a kineticist at my group containing on and it one hit KO'd the arcane caster who was gobsmacked and rather upset - was a comp blast but still a "standard" non critical attack
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So, I'm currently running a RotR campaign running almost exclusively hybrid classes (Warpriest, Bloodrager, Hunter, Magus, Witch), and I've adapted the first two books with content up to and including the Advanced Class Guide. I can say a little about things that can go awry:
- As mentioned, Gunslingers bypassing natural armor is a big deal, and makes archery-focused fighters, barbarians, and rangers rather weak in comparison starting in book 3 (although, giant-hunter rangers don't really fall behind much).
- Hybrid classes struggle to keep up with the expectations of full-progression casters that you're assumed to have. Book 2 and beyond expects a dedicated caster capable of removing status effects, and Shamans and Warpriests both struggle to have the right spells on time.
- Occult classes can be problematic for a few reasons. First, their utility spells tend to have drastically different spell levels. Some, like the Medium's early-entry speak with dead relevantly alter how much information the party has access to in a way that can spoil sections of the game. Additionally, arcane loot will be less useful, so if your primary casters are occult, they may find themselves much weaker without significant revisions.
So, I'm currently running a RotR campaign running almost exclusively hybrid classes (Warpriest, Bloodrager, Hunter, Magus, Witch), and I've adapted the first two books with content up to and including the Advanced Class Guide. I can say a little about things that can go awry:
- As mentioned, Gunslingers bypassing natural armor is a big deal, and makes archery-focused fighters, barbarians, and rangers rather weak in comparison starting in book 3 (although, giant-hunter rangers don't really fall behind much).
- Hybrid classes struggle to keep up with the expectations of full-progression casters that you're assumed to have. Book 2 and beyond expects a dedicated caster capable of removing status effects, and Shamans and Warpriests both struggle to have the right spells on time.
- Occult classes can be problematic for a few reasons. First, their utility spells tend to have drastically different spell levels. Some, like the Medium's early-entry speak with dead relevantly alter how much information the party has access to in a way that can spoil sections of the game. Additionally, arcane loot will be less useful, so if your primary casters are occult, they may find themselves much weaker without significant revisions.
Thanks for this. It is very interesting. (Gunslinger would never be an option anyway)
It makes my thoughts on trying to play a two player game a bit tricky if a full levelled wizard and cleric is kind of assumed
I don’t want to force people to play certain classes
Also early levels might make PCs seem like lesser lights as for the first couple someone who can kill goblins with a sword is probably the most useful
Some of these are standard 2 person party issues
I was looking at one of the cleric acolytes as a healing assist and then opening up (scaled down versions of) Shalelu and Ameiko as they become “available”
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- Ask that the players limit themselves, if they're willing, to a full caster and a character with full BAB. Based on the campaign, here's some pairings I can imagine doing well:
- Oracle of Heavens & Ranger
- Paladin VMC Oracle & Wizard
- Druid & Barbaraian
- Cleric & Summoner
- Shaman & Cavalier
I would also start these characters off at level 2 and in general keep them 1 level higher than recommended.
-Next, in a two-player game, it will be easier to emphasize roleplay interactions with NPCs. I recommend figuring out which NPCs the PCs like and having them work with them more readily than the AP suggests. Ameiko and Shalelu are some exceptions - they're a little to strong to help out the PCs directly unless they'll die otherwise. But Arika Avertin, Besk & Lanalee Magravi, Jaren (the city guard's lieutenant), and other low-level NPCs could assist them. If they take a liking to them (or start romances with them), have them level-up one level behind the PCs.
The reason to do this is because, especially starting in Book 2, save-or-suck spells and abilities will start taking out 50% of your party, and that issue will not go away as soon as it starts. As a more permenant solution:
- Grant the party the Leadership feat for free at level 7 (upon clearing the Misgivings, most likely, if you run it as AP expected party level +1)
- If the party doesn't like either of those, the main suggestions I can give are to make NPCs a bit more helpful, and allow magic items typically requiring UMD to activate (wands, scrolls, etc) to trigger without a check. Thus, as the party gets a lot of gear they won't need, they can sell it for cash, and then turn around and buy more consumables they need to fill in for what they can't do. Additionally, around halfway through the campaign (I'd recommend the end of Book 3 or end of Book 4), toss in a lesser artifact that lets the party do something they can't normally do - for instance, if they have no divine casters, consider something like a Staff of Life.
Personally, the way I'd like to handle this is ask each player to run 2 characters - one a "face" character that handles more roleplaying, and the other an adventurer they mostly want to run in combat. In addition, it helps if they run characters who don't handle all their problems through killing.
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As a last note to synthesize your first question and this second part, I'd say to allow post-2012 content, including Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat (minus guns), Advanced Race Guide, Advanced Class Guide, and Pathfinder Unchained. I would keep Occult Adventures, Ultimate Intrigue, and Ultimate Campaign off the table to avoid complications.
If they both choose 3/4 BAB progression classes without full casting, let them start 1 level higher and increase their access to consumables. If they want NPC help fine, but they won't need it for quite a while.
If they both choose a more balanced team (like a martial character and a full caster), just have NPCs help them out when they need more firepower, like Fort Rannick in book 3 or Thistletop in Book 1.
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What I did was use some of Unchained (Automatic Bonus Progression, and Revised Action Economy) as well as the classes. I asked the PCs to focus mainly on Core & APG, but since they've gotten into the Archives of Nethys, they've been looking for feats and spells that originally came in softcover books. So far, they haven't been trivializing anything, mainly because they aren't damage-focused, nor making scrolls of every possible utility spell.
Unless you're careful, the Object Reading spell could wreck the pacing of Book 2, but other than that, occult casters would mainly have difficulty with all the arcane loot around.
If you're doing a 2-player adventure, how about gestalt? Tone down the CR or encourage them to pick their battles carefully, and it could work.