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I find the concept of the Arcanimirium Sage archetype intriguing, but it feels like you give up quite a bit of your original class' benefits in order to be one. While being able to use multiple magic and hybrid items is certainly interesting, but it feels like the only class that can really take it painlessly is the Soldier...which is kind of weird considering the Arcanimirium is a magic school specializing in training technomancers.
Am I reading this right? Can a technomancer be an Arcanimirium Sage and still be recognizable? Or is it, like the Phrenic Adept before it, suitable for Soldiers only?
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I'm playing a Mystic Xenodruid Arc Sage and I find that the loss of Healing Touch, 1 of my highest Spell Slots at 2, Animal Adaptation, a delayed level for Channel Skill, and a free Reincarnate to be "about right" for balance.
Sure the loss of free healing and some versatility loss isn't ideal but the benefits are GREAT for a Mystic TBT. Auto Detect Magic all the time, free use of a Spell Gem every day, raising the # of Magic/Hybrid Items you can use and Recharging consumable or X/day use items more than make up for it.
Besides, all the spells I lose out on learning are replaced with others that I'd want to take anyway, Identify, Augury, and Arcane Sight are all great, and with the loss of Healing you can make up for it by carrying and NOT expending more Magic Items per day for buffing, healing, or just being cool zipping around like a mad elemental skylord.
Arcanimirium Sage is great on Mystics who have really garbage high level connection abilities (which is most of them). At high level you won't miss your top two, at lower levels you can deal with the delay.
The lost spell known is pretty irrelevant because you replace it with a floating spell known from a spell gem. The skill loss is minor and late. Healing touch is a minor ability that isn't very important.
It's fine on Technomancers, who should be glad of any opportunity to trade away all three instances of spell capacitor, a pretty trash ability. Missing two hacks is annoying, but I'd say 2nd and 11th level are actually the best levels to lose a hack, the options at those levels aren't great.
IMO, Arcanimirium sage is probably one of the most attractive archetypes for pretty much any class, just for Spell Gem Manipulation and Magic Item Attunement.
What are the really garbage high level connection abilities (or which ones are the actual good ones so I know what NOT to combine with this ASA)?
Geneturge, Mindbreaker, Overlord are all really easy to forgo. I wouldn't feel bad about Akashic, Empath, either. If I was willing or able to invest a lot of mony in the appropriate teleportation circlet magic item I'd also go with Star Shaman or Xenodruid.
I like the Devastaor, Healer, and Shadow high level abilities for a combat build.
As a Mind Breaker, I give up:
- - Highest level Mind Trust known
- - Another highest spell level known
- - Delayed connection abilities. This hurts for Sow Doubt being delayed by three levels
This means I only have a single spell known at the highest level I can cast. That basically means I need to "buy back" my Mind Trust with that spell known.
This is wrong. This archetype does not have a 4th level ability, so you don't lose your top level connection spell.
Aha, you're right! My mistake.
I re-read Gaining an Archetype (p.126), and it's even slightly different. This sentence is key:
When you first gain an archetype, read through all the altered or replaced class features that will affect your character, and note these down; for some classes (especially mystics and technomancers) these changes affect features from levels before or after the levels at which you gain archetype features.The Arcanamirium sage archetype grants alternate class features at 2nd, 6th, 9th, 12th, and 18th levels.
This means, as a Mind Breaker, I give up:
- - One (of usually two) highest spell level known.
- - TWO delayed connection abilities. This hurts for Sow Doubt being delayed until level 12.
- - My a feat, or the Healing Touch ability. (you need to decide this on level 2)
- - At 11th level and again at 14th level, you don’t gain the increase to your channel skill bonus.
That means you don't gain your Share Pain lvl 1 connection ability, until you've reached level 6.
Still wrong! Even more so than your first post.
At 2nd level you lose a spell known, and get Magic Item Scholar.
At 6th level you don't get Sow Thought, and do get Spell Gem Manipulator.
At 9th level you don't get either the Healing Touch class ability or a feat (how this works is a very unclear and not relevant). Because nothing at this archetype level effects your connection powers, for your 9th level connection power you get Sow Thought late.
At 11th and 14th level you don't get boosts to your connection channel skill bonus. At 12th you get Recharge Magic item from the archetype. You also get your Mental Anguish connection power late, since the archetype again doesn't touch it.
At 15th level you get the Mindbreaking Link connection power late.
At 18th level you get Greater Magic Attunment, and will not get another connection power as your payment.
Sow Thought and Mindbreaking Link are the only good powers that you get late. The last two Mindbreaker connection powers are trash and won't be missed.
I'm playing a Mystic Xenodruid Arc Sage and I find that the loss of Healing Touch, 1 of my highest Spell Slots at 2, Animal Adaptation, a delayed level for Channel Skill, and a free Reincarnate to be "about right" for balance.That's wrong I think. You don't give up the connection power of that (6th/18th) level, but they all get delayed by two steps.
Nope.
Thanks for taking the time, Xenocrat.
However, I still don't understand how you interpret this rule:
When you first gain an archetype, read through all the altered or replaced class features that will affect your character, and note these down; for some classes (especially mystics and technomancers) these changes affect features from levels before or after the levels at which you gain archetype features.You interpret the rules in that the archetype only affects your class once you reach a specific level. But that's against what the rule line I quoted, right? Is there a different rule I'm missing that supports your interpretation?
I think it's universally believed that this refers to the Mystic 9th and 12th level replacements, and the Technomancer 9th level replacement.
Maybe we've all been doing it wrong, and Mystic archetypes are absolutely awful in every way, rather than just a very poor choice. I'll admit that your reading seems supportable with the text, but I don't think it's ever been raised before, so even if Paizo were to ever publish a FAQ to clean up all the poor language in the CRB I don't think it would include this one.
I clearly read it Like Varun Creed. If you replace the 9th level of your Mystic, you either don't have Healing Touch right from the start, or you lose a feat at whatever moment during your progression (which is not necessary 9th level, as you may want a feat which asks for prerequisites you will get at 9th level).
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I clearly read it Like Varun Creed. If you replace the 9th level of your Mystic, you either don't have Healing Touch right from the start, or you lose a feat at whatever moment during your progression (which is not necessary 9th level, as you may want a feat which asks for prerequisites you will get at 9th level).
That's never been in dispute.
The novel issue he's raising is whether if you pick an archetype that replaces your 6th or 18th level abilities as a mystic you immediately start delaying your connection powers. I've never seen anyone argue that before. It would mean a hypothetical archetype that provided only 2nd and 18th level abilities would deny you your 3rd level connection power and delay them your entire career. I don't think that's the intent.
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I'm even more confused on the mystic archetype interactions than before I came into this thread. Thanks guys.
It can't possibly work that way. If you haven't taken the level where a thing happens, then the thing hasn't happened yet.
Sure, except for the 9th level healing touch language for mystic archetypes, which implies you can choose to lose a class feature you gain at 1st level for a choice you can't pick until at least 2nd level, to pay for an ability you won't get until 9th level.
We might know how it really works in 2023 when they release a FAQ.
That's never been in dispute.
The novel issue he's raising is whether if you pick an archetype that replaces your 6th or 18th level abilities as a mystic you immediately start delaying your connection powers. I've never seen anyone argue that before. It would mean a hypothetical archetype that provided only 2nd and 18th level abilities would deny you your 3rd level connection power and delay them your entire career. I don't think that's the intent.
Sorry, I misunderstood.
I agree with you. All archetypes specify that you "don't gain something", and we understand it's at the level we gain the archetype feature.So, I would rule it the same way for Connection powers and spells.
Looks to me there's a mistake in the number of spells know of your second version or the archetyped Mystic.