How does it all interact?
I assume Hammer Fist overwrites a Powered Armor's attack die. I also assume there's nothing in the rules that says Natural Weapons doesn't apply when you're wearing Powered Armors.
Asking, we have a Vesk Soldier in the party and this is his thing.
Hammer Fist would overwrite anything. I don't see any rule that would prevent natural weapons from stacking with power armor damage dice, but natural weapons do not stack with Hammer Fist in any way.
I knew Hammer Fist overwrote Natural Weapons entirely, thus they couldn't be used together.
And by stacking, I meant the 1.5× specialization only. Starfinder is a game of balance, not sense. Basically is there a hard rule written that says Natural Weapons doesn't apply in Power Armor. Or that the attack Power Armor provides is not an Unarmed Strike.
And by stacking, I meant the 1.5× specialization only. Starfinder is a game of balance, not sense. Basically is there a hard rule written that says Natural Weapons doesn't apply in Power Armor. Or that the attack Power Armor provides is not an Unarmed Strike.
Nope.
In the absence of this being spelled out in the text, reason should dictate the interaction.
Every suit of PA beyond the Battle Harness suggests that the suit's damage die is a result of replacing the user's normal hand-to-hand method. It isn't called out that way, but that is how I read it.
The Battle Harness is basically an exoskeleton with limited advantages. Natural weapons should be no problem.
The Cargo Lifter is pretty much Ripley from Aliens. I'd think the damage die is from hitting with the lifting implements and not the pilot's appendages. Everything else is mecha inspired and presumes to be fully enclosed.
That said, if punching things with mecha hands is the character's thing, Does adding 1.5 x level to PA damage really skew things over just plain 1 x level? I don't think I'd run it that way personally, but balance wise is it really that big a deal?
And by stacking, I meant the 1.5× specialization only. Starfinder is a game of balance, not sense. Basically is there a hard rule written that says Natural Weapons doesn't apply in Power Armor. Or that the attack Power Armor provides is not an Unarmed Strike.Nope.
In the absence of this being spelled out in the text, reason should dictate the interaction.
Every suit of PA beyond the Battle Harness suggests that the suit's damage die is a result of replacing the user's normal hand-to-hand method. It isn't called out that way, but that is how I read it.
The Battle Harness is basically an exoskeleton with limited advantages. Natural weapons should be no problem.
The Cargo Lifter is pretty much Ripley from Aliens. I'd think the damage die is from hitting with the lifting implements and not the pilot's appendages. Everything else is mecha inspired and presumes to be fully enclosed.
That said, if punching things with mecha hands is the character's thing, Does adding 1.5 x level to PA damage really skew things over just plain 1 x level? I don't think I'd run it that way personally, but balance wise is it really that big a deal?
1.5x Level is a HUGE leap from 1x Level. With my vesk melee Soldier, I use the Melee Striker Gear Boost to get half of my strength in damage bonus, which at 7th level and with maximum possible Strength is +3 damage. Using Natural Weapons by itself gives me +3 damage at that level. I can tell from the exasperated moans of my GM (LOVE YOU ANDREW!) that 1d3+19 is a lot of damage for a punch.
So yeah, I would say that adding power armor damage dice to it is a Big Deal. I don't know what the answer is, because the rules about unarmed power armor combat are not very clear at all (even less clear than Natural Weapons in general), but it seems pretty significant. Looking at an armor that my aforementioned soldier could use, the Personal Submersible (assuming minimum 13 Strength, pre-armor):
Level 7 non-Vesk Soldier (control group): 1d3+8 damage (average 10 damage)
Level 7 Armor Storm Soldier (contrast group): 1d4+10 damage (average 12.5 damage)
Level 7 Vesk Soldier with Natural Weapons but without power armor: 1d3+11 damage (average 13 damage)
Level 7 Soldier with power armor & regular specialization: 1d10+11 damage (average 16.5 damage)
Level 7 Vesk Soldier with armor & Natural Weapons specialization: 1d10+14 (average 19.5 damage)
See that? Most aspects that you stack gives about +3 average damage. That seems too specific to be a coincidence. Allowing Natural Weapons to buff a power armor unarmed attack is a swing of +6 instead of +3. I'm not saying it isn't intended, but it is not something to sneeze at or brush off as insignificant, either.
I included the Armor Storm soldier because it, in theory (if not game mechanics) the Hammer Fist is the same sort of weapon as the power armor; Armor Storm soldiers use their armor's hardness as an unarmed weapon.
See that? Most aspects that you stack gives about +3 average damage. That seems too specific to be a coincidence. Allowing Natural Weapons to buff a power armor unarmed attack is a swing of +6 instead of +3. I'm not saying it isn't intended, but it is not something to sneeze at or brush off as insignificant, either.
Cool, then don't do it if you think it is too powerful.
However, pointing out an average 19.5 weapon damage for Power Armor One Punch Man at level 7 isn't really an earth shattering revelation to me.
The same Vesk Soldier could be using a 2D8 Advanced weapon at the same level which averages what, 25 damage (Str mod +6, melee striker +3, WPS +7, dice damage 1d8 (4.5) x 2 =9)?
That's a damage difference of 5.5. If you don't include the Natural Weapon Specialization then it is a difference of 8.5.
So again, is it really that big a deal when you look outside the realm of just how hard characters can punch in the game?
See that? Most aspects that you stack gives about +3 average damage. That seems too specific to be a coincidence. Allowing Natural Weapons to buff a power armor unarmed attack is a swing of +6 instead of +3. I'm not saying it isn't intended, but it is not something to sneeze at or brush off as insignificant, either.Cool, then don't do it.
Er, okay?
Er, okay?See that? Most aspects that you stack gives about +3 average damage. That seems too specific to be a coincidence. Allowing Natural Weapons to buff a power armor unarmed attack is a swing of +6 instead of +3. I'm not saying it isn't intended, but it is not something to sneeze at or brush off as insignificant, either.Cool, then don't do it.
I made an edit to that response.
However, that quoted point still stands. It's stating the obvious but then again I felt the other things I stated in that reply to the OP were also obvious. My mistake and the question on damage balance was rhetorical.
The point I was trying to make was this. If the player is having fun playing Mecha One Punch Man then go for it. If the stacking isn't that disruptive, and I don't think it is, then who freaking cares about 3 points of damage at level 7?
I don't want to go line by line of available weapons to a 7th level character which can go into the level + 2 range, but the damage comparisons don't seem to be that big a deal. So if I scoff at +3 damage, then guilty as charged because in my opinion it's not a big deal.
But! If that is too much for your table, then don't allow it. None of what I posted or what the OP is asking about is explicitly detailed in any of the source material so who cares how they run it in the end?
Ah, you are expecting me to get really pedantic and argue with you over your player having fun.
That's really not my bag. I already said that I don't know the answer and that the rules are even more nebulous than in other cases where it seems clear to me despite being clearly something different for someone else.
It isn't even clear if the armor's damage is an Unarmed Strike, if it is lethal, or even if it includes specialization bonus ("When you make an unarmed melee attack with the powered armor, it deals damage equal to the armor’s listed damage value plus its Strength modifier..." no mention of specialization, if it's archaic, or even what kind of weapon it is). I'm not even going to hazard a guess on all that.
No circular arguments here, I take your point. While it might seem weird to have an "unarmed" attack do damage on par with an advanced weapon, proficiency in powered armor is an even steeper requirement than Improved Unarmed Strike (which gives you damage equivalent to a Basic Weapon).
On the other hand, the armor itself is not so much more expensive than regular heavy armor, so from a credit-to-effect ratio, there are considerations to be made.
None of which is to say that your player is having Bad Wrong Fun.
Just as an aside, I factored out some variables in my list for simplicity's sake. Melee Striker, for example, I removed because the bonus was so variable (and could be nothing if you only have 12-13 Strength, or +2 higher for Hammer Fist). The vesk soldier in power armor who gets Natural Weapons specialization is actually at 21.5 average damage when you count Melee Striker. It is still a good bit less (3.5 less, which actually fits in my previous post's escalation formula pretty well) than that 5,500 credit 25 damage Devastation Blade.
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There are two sorts of questions that could be asked here.
Question type 1: How will it affect my game, if I allow this?
Question type 2: What are the rules of the game, normally?
You can easily stop at question 1, if the result is that you feel comfortable that there won't be any balance problems or reasons that it would cause problems at your table.
This does not mean that people can't or shouldn't try to answer question 2, based on what is written in the rulebooks, especially in a subforum titled "Rules Questions."
Ah, you are expecting me to get really pedantic and argue with you over your player having fun.
That's really not my bag. I already said that I don't know the answer and that the rules are even more nebulous than in other cases where it seems clear to me despite being clearly something different for someone else.
It isn't even clear if the armor's damage is an Unarmed Strike, if it is lethal, or even if it includes specialization bonus ("When you make an unarmed melee attack with the powered armor, it deals damage equal to the armor’s listed damage value plus its Strength modifier..." no mention of specialization, if it's archaic, or even what kind of weapon it is). I'm not even going to hazard a guess on all that.
No circular arguments here, I take your point. While it might seem weird to have an "unarmed" attack do damage on par with an advanced weapon, proficiency in powered armor is an even steeper requirement than Improved Unarmed Strike.
On the other hand, the armor itself is not so much more expensive than regular heavy armor, so from a credit-to-effect ratio, there are considerations to be made.
None of which is to say that your player is having Bad Wrong Fun.
Just as an aside, I factored out some variables in my list for simplicity's sake. Melee Striker, for example, I removed because the bonus was so variable (and could be nothing if you only have 12-13 Strength, or +2 higher for Hammer Fist). The vesk soldier in power armor who gets Natural Weapons specialization is actually at 21.5 average damage when you count Melee Striker. It is still a good bit less (3.5 less, which actually fits in my previous post's escalation formula pretty well) than that 5,500 credit 25 damage Devastation Blade.
In retrospect, I regret even replying or logging in today.
1) It's not about my players fun. It is about making suggestions to help the OP. I'm trying to be helpful to that person. Anyone that read that could take it or leave. It's not how I would handle it, and I said as much, but I can see arguments in favor of it. Nothing more, nothing less.
2) As for the pedantic arguments, well you did choose start with that position.
3) My damage question in the original reply was rhetorical. I should have been more clear. My mistake. You were just trying to be helpful in trying to provide examples in your own way, and I took it the wrong way. I regret that. I took it as you basically man-splaining something I didn't need explained.
We could go down the list of weapons available to a level 7 soldier and math it all out. It doesn't answer the OP's question about a hard line rule. All it does is show pros and cons of why or why not to implement the suggestion.
At the end of the day it comes down the OP's group fun.
In retrospect, I regret even replying or logging in today.
I don't. You have some valid points.
1) It's not about my players fun. It is about making suggestions to help the OP. I'm trying to be helpful to that person. Anyone that read that could take it or leave. It's not how I would handle it, and I said as much, but I can see arguments in favor of it. Nothing more, nothing less.
We're all trying to do that. Sometimes things get hashed out in the discussion. It's not a war someone has to win, no matter how it feels sometimes.
2) As for the pedantic arguments, well you did choose start with that position.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct! Yes, I'm that guy.
3) My damage question in the original reply was rhetorical. I should have been more clear. My mistake. You were just trying to be helpful in trying to provide examples in your own way, and I took it the wrong way. I regret that. I took it as you basically man-splaining something I didn't need explained.
Don't sweat it. Internet forums are weird. I have no idea what you know or even if you appreciate my contribution. All I know is whether or not the discussion has inspired me to share something or not. I think that I have some interesting perspectives that others could find useful. Don't most people?
I think that most discussions benefit from a variety of opinions and viewpoints, as long as everybody's arguing in good faith.
With regard to the OP, any ruling is fine, as long as it is consistent (if the armor's attack is an Unarmed Strike, treat it as an Unarmed Strike; if it is its own weapon, make some rulings on the traits of that weapon, and how to handle things like proficiency and specialization, then keep it the same for all the players.
For some clarity on Power Armor damage, see page 203 of the Core Rule Book:
"When you make an unarmed melee attack with the powered armor, it deals damage equal to the armor’s listed damage value plus its Strength modifier."
The listed damage is an unarmed melee attack. It's not worded as unarmed strike or unarmed attack as per Improved Unarmed Strike on CRB pg 158.
I take that to suggest that the Power Armor replaces whatever natural weapon or unarmed striking method the wearer has.
Hammer Fist changes this.
CRB 113:
"You treat any unarmed attack you make while wearing heavy or powered armor as being made with a battleglove (see page 187) with an item level equal to or lower than your soldier level, and you calculate damage for these attacks as if you had the melee striker gear boost (see page 112). If you have the melee striker gear boost, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with your unarmed attacks when using this ability. These unarmed attacks don’t benefit from other abilities that apply specifically to unarmed attacks (such as the Improved Unarmed Strike feat)."
So Power Armor normally uses the Power Armor's strength modifier plus whatever listed damage is there.
Hammer Fist changes this to a faux Battleglove with additional strength calculations and additions like Melee Striker (PA default doesn't seem to allow this, I could be wrong). The caveat is that Hammer Fist doesn't take on any other improving modifiers to unarmed attacks (IUS called out explicitly, Natural Weapons is likely implied).
Seems like Power Armor melee by default isn't as stellar for One Punch Space Marine as it may seem. Armor Storm's Hammer Fist however does change it significantly.