So I have noticed some, but not all of the magus archetypes that replace spell recall do not replace improved spell recall. Should I interoperate this as:
A) improved spell recall is also removed and replaced with nothing
B) I get improved spell recall at the normal level despite lacking base spell recall
C) improved spell recall is 'demoted' to normal spell recall
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I disagree with Jared and Belaton interpretation. Here is the text they cite:
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such
as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.
In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn’t jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
Let's read what it says, step by step:
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base abilitySo what are those base abilities that "are part of a series of improvements or additions"?
Look the examples:
- fighter weapon training 1-4,
- favored enemy 1-5,
- sneak attack 1d6-10d6.
All abilities that keep the same name and have a simple effect with a clear progression between the different steps. All are under the same description in the class abilities.
Now let's look Spell recall and Improved spell recall:
Spell Recall (Su): At 4th level, the magus learns to use
his arcane pool to recall spells he has already cast. With a swift action he can recall any single magus spell that he has already prepared and cast that day by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1). The spell is prepared again, just as if it had not been cast.
Improved Spell Recall (Su): At 11th level, the magus’s ability to recall spells using his arcane pool becomes more efficient. Whenever he recalls a spell with spell recall, he expends a number of points from his arcane pool equal to 1/2 the spell’s level (minimum 1). Furthermore, instead of recalling a used spell, as a swift action the magus can prepare a spell of the same level that he has in his spellbook. He does so by expending a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the spell’s level (minimum 1). The magus cannot apply metamagic feats to a spell prepared in this way. The magus does not need to reference his spellbook to prepare a spell in this way.
Two different headers, so it is not the same class ability. It doesn't have a linear progression like the examples.
That rule doesn't apply to it.
Seeint that there are archetypes that replace Improved Spell Recall, we should assume that, RAW, it work normally, your option B).
I disagree with Jared and Belaton interpretation. Here is the text they cite:
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.
The clue is in the name.
To the OP, the joy of tabletop gaming is that we can interpret things different ways, and each gaming table gets to interpret things a way that suits them. This means you can choose the one that works for your table. However the general consensus on the boards is that option "C" is correct.
C seems like the result the rule is trying to achieve. If option B is correct then the following is also true
1. both a liberator and a shadow rebel (rogue archetypes) would get improved uncanny dodge and not uncanny dodge.
2. a herald (cavalier archetype) gets greater Greater Tactician but not Tactician.
3. a master summoner (summoner archetype) gets Greater Shield Ally but not Shield Ally.
If I give up ability X, and later gain an ability that is X+Y then I never really gave up X and the archetype is essentially granting a new ability at no real cost. From a balance standpoint C makes more sense.
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The text I cited (from Ultimate Magic) isn't what d20pfsrd (a non-official source) has.
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.
Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge are listed under different "headers" in the barbarian class abilities. So it's pretty clear that it doesn't matter how the abilities are broken out in the class description. You get Spell Recall at the level you would normally get Improved Spell Recall.
Belefon is correct.
Yup, it's C.
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The text I cited (from Ultimate Magic) isn't what d20pfsrd (a non-official source) has.
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge are listed under different "headers" in the barbarian class abilities. So it's pretty clear that it doesn't matter how the abilities are broken out in the class description. You get Spell Recall at the level you would normally get Improved Spell Recall.
I cited from the PDF of the first printing.
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.
In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn’t jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
The change in the example changes the meaning of the rule. So it is C).
And yes, Jared Walter 356, my (past) interpretation would make Improved spell recall non-functional, but that alone doesn't make the interpretation wrong. If you, for some reason, get an improved version of an ability that requires you to use the lesser version to make it work, and, for some reason, you lack the lesser version, the improved version stop functioning. You still have it, even if it is only a bit of useless text on the character sheet.
With all the splat-books there are so many ways to get basic abilities that it is possible to get the basic ability some other way that it would be still possible to make it work.