If a creature with flying speed and wings uses Alter Self to transform itself into a humanoid without wings it can not use its flying speed?
I am looking at RAW, RAI I imagine it looses ability to fly unless it is magical ability, kind of like Skeleton template (and that in itself is imposible to determine, cos things like Star Monarch do have wings, but since they can fly through space I wouldn't bet on having its wings unavalable preventing it from flying).
Only small or medium humanoids with wings are Strix if I am not missing anything (maybe aasimars and tengu with specific traits. can those be chosen even? what about "human sorcerer with that bloodline that gives me demon wings"?)
From the rules specific to each school of magic (and some subschools) "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function."
So, since fly is a movement type, you lose it when using Alter Self.
The sorcerer bloodline abilities that let you grow wings as an action would still work, similar to the claws mentioned in the text above.
But polymorhing into Strix would still let me keep fly speed because they have wings? Or second half of the statement is does not keep "dependent on your original form" in mind?
By the polymorph rules, you would lose your original fly speed and gain whatever fly speed is allowed between your assumed form and the rules given in the particular spell. For example, Beast Shape I would give you "fly 30 feet (average maneuverability)", which means that, if the form you assume can fly, you can fly at a speed of either 30 feet or the fly speed of the assumed form (whichever is worse) with either average maneuverability or the maneuverability of the assumed form (again, whichever is worse).
Unfortunately, Alter Self makes no mention of flying, so any wings gained from the spell would be purely cosmetic.
I have curiosity on this based on a character I'm working on. A White Haired Witch whom will gain Giant Shape 1, 2, and Shapechange as spells from the Strength patron.
By polymorph, all three of these spells nix your White Hair (Su), even if the creature you become has hair. Kinda crummy, cause it means Enlarge Person isctye only size spell you can use, and it only targets humanoids meaning any of the outsider races can't use it.
By polymorph, all three of these spells nix your White Hair (Su), even if the creature you become has hair.
Does it? White Hair is a class ability, not a race ability, so there could be a question of whether it is in any way based on your original form. I seem to recall reading somewhere that this ability actually works fine for races that don't even have hair, but I can't find a source at the moment.
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By polymorph, all three of these spells nix your White Hair (Su), even if the creature you become has hair.Does it? White Hair is a class ability, not a race ability, so there could be a question of whether it is in any way based on your original form. I seem to recall reading somewhere that this ability actually works fine for races that don't even have hair, but I can't find a source at the moment.
I recall a post saying that. I think it was about using eyebrows and such, but I am not sure if it was a jest or not.
As it is a class feature you can use it after polymorphing, but only if the new form can use it in some way.
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.
Claws (Su): Starting at 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus. Each of these attacks deals 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d3 if you are Small). ...
The claws have no limitation on where you can grow them, so you can use them even if you take a worm-shaped form without limbs.
White Hair (Su): At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet. The hair deals 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small witch) plus the witch’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check. When a white-haired witch grapples a foe in this way, she does not gain the grappled condition.
On the other hand, White Hair requires to use the hairs of the witch as a weapon, so you need a form with hairs.
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Prehensile Hair (Su) (Ultimate Magic pg. 1): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand. The hair cannot be sundered or attacked as a separate creature. Pieces cut from the witch's elongated hair shrink away to nothing. Using her hair does not harm the witch's head or neck, even if she lifts something heavy with it. The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows.
The eyebrow part works only for Prehensile Hair, the text of White Hair is different.
Well, that sucks.
Thanks for the clarification!
You only lose flight speed if it is dependent on your physical form (such as transforming from a winged creature to one without wings).
If you flew via magical/supernatural means, however, it can be argued that it is not dependent on physical form and you keep your flight in the new form regardless.
I have curiosity on this based on a character I'm working on. A White Haired Witch whom will gain Giant Shape 1, 2, and Shapechange as spells from the Strength patron.
By polymorph, all three of these spells nix your White Hair (Su), even if the creature you become has hair. Kinda crummy, cause it means Enlarge Person isctye only size spell you can use, and it only targets humanoids meaning any of the outsider races can't use it.
Abilities granted by class are not form dependent.
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Abilities granted by class are not form dependent.I have curiosity on this based on a character I'm working on. A White Haired Witch whom will gain Giant Shape 1, 2, and Shapechange as spells from the Strength patron.
By polymorph, all three of these spells nix your White Hair (Su), even if the creature you become has hair. Kinda crummy, cause it means Enlarge Person isctye only size spell you can use, and it only targets humanoids meaning any of the outsider races can't use it.
Quote from polymorph effects:
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.
Which means some indeed are form-dependent.
You only lose flight speed if it is dependent on your physical form (such as transforming from a winged creature to one without wings).
If you flew via magical/supernatural means, however, it can be argued that it is not dependent on physical form and you keep your flight in the new form regardless.
So if winged creature transforms into a Strix it still can use its fly speed?
So if winged creature transforms into a Strix it still can use its fly speed?You only lose flight speed if it is dependent on your physical form (such as transforming from a winged creature to one without wings).
If you flew via magical/supernatural means, however, it can be argued that it is not dependent on physical form and you keep your flight in the new form regardless.
Unless your original mode of flight was magical/supernatural, I imagine you would be limited to whatever a normal strix's fly speed is (or that of the spell's limitations, whichever is worse). Your wings, musculature, and whole locomotive system has changed to those of a strix, after all.
Why would you think it wouldn't change?
On the other hand, White Hair requires to use the hairs of the witch as a weapon, so you need a form with hairs.
Therefore, get yourself some kids. :-)
/cevah
So if winged creature transforms into a Strix it still can use its fly speed?You only lose flight speed if it is dependent on your physical form (such as transforming from a winged creature to one without wings).
If you flew via magical/supernatural means, however, it can be argued that it is not dependent on physical form and you keep your flight in the new form regardless.Unless your original mode of flight was magical/supernatural, I imagine you would be limited to whatever a normal strix's fly speed is (or that of the spell's limitations, whichever is worse). Your wings, musculature, and whole locomotive system has changed to those of a strix, after all.
Why would you think it wouldn't change?
(emphasis mine)
I thought it would change, but not to 0, but I see now that since Alter Self only gives swim speed, even a creature who originally had fly speed would not be able to fly altering itself into another flying creature.Actually this is for the better, I think.
Abilities granted by class are not form dependent.I have curiosity on this based on a character I'm working on. A White Haired Witch whom will gain Giant Shape 1, 2, and Shapechange as spells from the Strength patron.
By polymorph, all three of these spells nix your White Hair (Su), even if the creature you become has hair. Kinda crummy, cause it means Enlarge Person isctye only size spell you can use, and it only targets humanoids meaning any of the outsider races can't use it.
Quote from polymorph effects:
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.
Which means some indeed are form-dependent.
I would be hard pressed to come up with specific examples.
The best I can come up with is extreme corner cases like Lesser Beast Totem on a barbarian polymorphed into something that has no appendages on which to grow claws.
I would be hard pressed to come up with specific examples.
Unless it's about permanent versus non-permanent body modifications from class features. I've always taken it to mean that you can profit from Rage powers, Feral Mutagen, activatable bloodline powers etc. when using them in polymorph form, but that non-activated stuff like Vestigal Arm don't carry through shapeshifting.
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@Ravindork:
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
You have wings, but they don't work.
@Volkard Abendroth and Derklord
The above-mentioned ability from the Withe haired witch requires you to use the hair, so you need hairs.
The sorcerer and barbarian claw feature don't require limbs, so you can grow them on your body (I don't like it much, but that is the raw).
That's why I said "or worse." :P