TL:DR Is the Ripsaw Glaive from GoG considered a Glaive even while spinning? And if so - why bother reprinting the weapon to be worse?
Recently, there has been a small disagreement within our Pathfinder Society group regarding this weapon's rulings. The player in question has earned a place of infamy from my perspective after convincing the GM to make their Giant Spider encounter a "Wolf-Spider" than arguing and winning Favorite Enemy bonus against the encounter because it was a "Wolf" (ignoring the fact that the Giant Spider was a Vermin and not a Beast). However, this happened several months ago - and the player is now trying to finagle the rules into his favor within the group again. I already know nothing I say will be taken seriously due to the GMs existing friendships with this player, but I wanted to ask for an official ruling just to satisfy myself regarding this case because it's driving me crazy.
Back to the question at hand: These characters are for Official PFS games that are tracked and recorded for the society. However, I was told "expect GM Variance" by the group when they ruled this case. I wanted to clarify some information officially - if only to save my own sanity.
I understand that player's can choose to use different print versions of weapons/feats/equipment/ect... from different source books unless otherwise specified in the Pathfinder Society rules. For example: Players can choose to take Divine Fighting Technique from either the WMH or DA, but can only pick the PFSG Grenadier Archetype due to rules. However, based on the ruling of this weapon, I don't think that is the point of this argument.
So... This player is arguing that the GoG Print of Ripsaw Glaive's "otherwise" is used in the context of 'In addition to' instead of literally meaning OTHERWISE in the weapon description (Dictionary Term: in circumstances different from those present or considered; or else.). The only argument they could give in response was "Well, if it isn't counted as a Glaive, what does it count as?" - and they promptly ignored my "It counts as a giant spinning blade of death that isn't a glaive".
So... In order to save my sanity from continuing to dwell on this pointless ruling: What exactly is the official ruling for this?! I don't even care if I'm wrong at this point - JUST SO I STOP THINKING ABOUT THIS. Just ANYTHING official would be nice.
Like I said: This doesn't really matter because either way the player will be running around with this on his official Pathfinder Society character and using this weapon however he wants to. I am posting this for my own sanity, as I won't be able to ignore this until I receive something official.
My unofficial understanding of how this should work is that its sort of like a bastard sword in that to use it in its special way requires EWP but it can be used in a more basic way without EWP.
If the blade is spinning, it counts as the Ripsaw Blade and requires EWP to use it without penalty.
If the blade isnt spinning, it counts as a glaive and doesn't require EWP.
@pocsaclypse - I am morose curious about the fine details of qualification rather than proficiency. I.e.: Does a Divine class automatically get Proficiency with a Ripsaw Glaive while it's spinning? Or does a class that specifically gets the Ripsaw Glaive?
More accurately: Do Paladins/Clerics/Divine Classes automatically gain proficiency with a Ripsaw Glaive while spinning because it's a Glaive? Additionally, does it count as Glaive for Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and all the Glaive feats while spinning?
A Bastard Sword is always a Bastard Sword, so you can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization whether or not you use it two handed. If you're a Paladin, then you gain that weapon as a free weapon proficiency. Unfortunately, the Ripsaw Glaive is more vague in its original printing.
The AV2 version of this weapon is clear on this topic. The answer is "No". However, the player has chosen to use the GoG version of this weapon due to its vague wording, in an attempt to gain free proficiency with the weapon while it is spinning and use feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization while it is spinning.
This is the main point I'm asking about this weapon.
The newer printing (AV2) is essentially an errata. When Paizo reprints an item/archetype/spell/etc. it's to either rework, add to, or clarify rules and usage of stated object.
Do proficiency granting classes get to use this weapon if they have glaive proficiency? Yes, yes they do... because it's a glaive.
Do they get to use it whilst it's spinning? No; it's listed in exotic weapons because it requires special training outside of what would be required for a normal glaive user to use.
This seems like a really stupid circumvention of the rules... but if this is going to keep happening just take advantage of these 'incorrect' rulings or find someone who has more power over this situation.
The only argument they could give in response was "Well, if it isn't counted as a Glaive, what does it count as?"
A Ripsaw Glaive... Like... The name is right there....
At the end of this, your initial interpretations seem correct.
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It is basically 2 different weapons in 1...a glaive when not spinning, and a ripsaw glaive when spinning. Anything that gets proficiency with glaives could wield it while not spinning, and weapon focus and proficiency with a glaive would apply. If it is spinning, you need EWP, and focus/specialization with Ripsaw Glaive instead.
I apologize for the outburst from my original post. I let my anger and frustration get the better of me when I shouldn't have. I have decided to remove myself from the internet for the next few weeks to help settle down. With everything that has been going on, it might be best to just black out on the news for a while.
@pocsaclypse, @Alphavoltario, @Jared Walter 356, and @Slyme; Thank you for taking the time to post your answers. While I am sad to see no official case for this issue, I am appreciative for the information you guys have given. I wish you all the best of luck with your own games.
Other weapons have this sane structure. Of note the Aldori Dueling Sword, and the Duelists Dagger come to mind. Basically if you lack their specialized Proficiency they can be used as some lesser weapon.
The Aldori Dueling Sword is Finessable if you have Exotic Proficiency in it. If you don't it can be used as a longsword. That's the same concept as the Ripsaw Glaive. It's its own Exotic Weapon, but if you don't have that Proficiency you can treat it as a glaive with none of the additional benefits. No +2 damage, it's a plain glaive.