How to buff Flamer Pistol (and i guess other line weapons) ?

[Zwordsman]

Howdy.

So I'm trying to figure out some ways to improve stuff like the flamer pistol. They have the newer upgraded versions in Armory too. I know you can just upgrade to plasma later, which would alievate a lot of the issues (such as bulk of ammo). But I was wondering if others had any other thoughts?
Note: When I use the term flamer, or flame pistol. I'm referring to them in a general sense. not only the lv 2 one. I realize that fusions on low level weapons are difficult (if not, not doable... though honestly fusions are confusing)
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So. Flamer Pistols.. Are they projectile weapons? I assume not.. but I really want Energetic weapon fusion to work with it, as that would help just so much with the ammo bulk issue. Backup gennie on your person, and you basically can pull out a line weapon when you need it. (presumably carrying or maze core I guess)
Bonus Question... are Flare guns projectile as they shoot a flare? Would that count? Wouldn't make much sense. but I would be weirdly amused. though its analog so I guess that prevents it.

The only other Bulk mitigating idea I had might be Manufacturing Fusion.
"this fusion often makes the weapon pearly white with gold accents. You can add up to 400 credits of UPBs to a manufacturing weapon as a swift action. When you do, the fusion’s magic instantly manufactures ammunition inside the weapon worth an equal amount (which might mean recharging a battery) up to the maximum the weapon can carry. This ammunition is nonmagical and can be removed normally."
1000upb is only 1 bulk. You can load the flamer line of weapons with a Tank's amount of UPB as a swift action. This lets you load the weapon faster and eases the bulk issues greatly.
1 petrol is 60. and effectively 1 upb per credit was it? (I can't remember and can't quite find it) so for 1 bulk I get quite a few reloads.

So that might take care of the bulk issue.
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Are high capacity petrol tanks made only for specific flame weapons? Or can you plug one into any weapon? It is 2 bulk. Normal tanks are 1 bulk. A flame pistol (basic one) is L weight. the table is listed with them loaded, so the main bulk of the tank is from its awkward shape and carry ability.
So.. would using a high capacity tank in one create a heavier than L flame pistol?

(Though if you put manufactoring on one, then just using the standard tank size is better due to cost ratio)

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is there any methods to raise the damage people know of?
I assume Mechanic's Overcharge does not work (not battery powered and " A line weapon doesn’t benefit from feats or abilities that increase the damage of a single attack (such as the operative’s trick attack)" Though.. I i think it should but regardless)

Are there any accessories or ways to increase it that folks could list?

[Nyerkh]

Don't overcomplicate things, it's a slippery slope.
Weapons in the projectile category are projectile weapons. Weapons in the flame category are flame weapons.
No need to reach beyond that, those tables are there to do the work for you.

Manufacturing should work, I think. Which makes it a pretty good idea.

Petrol tanks do lack the wording batteries have but I'd expect them to work similarly, the weapon's stats telling you the biggest tank you can plug in.
But I can't seem to find any explicit language one way or another.

[Zwordsman]

yeah I figured that the type would be a weird one.

Though that weird shotgun that uses shells but does fire damage is a weird category issue case. Damage classifies it as fire (which I assume classifies as energy) but the ammo is solidly classified as projectile in the ammo section.

Wish the damage could get up but i'l l take what i can get really
kind of partially for the flavor of Lucca Ashtear like constructs

[Pantshandshake]

The shellguns and the gulchgun are also in the flame category. So they aren't projectile weapons either.

[Nyerkh]

Damage type is not what determines a weapon's category. Neither does the ammunition used.
Really : they are sorted and labeled in the books (and the various sites), the tables are explicit on that front, so ... stick to that ?
"Logicking" at stuff to twist things around is a good to create issues where they really are none.

Petrol converters are flame weapons that can deal acid damage. They're still nothing but flame weapons.
Disintegrators and acid lancers all do acid damage, yet they don't share a category.
Needlers aren't projectile weapons, they're uncategorized. Do they technically project stuff ? Yes. Is it relevant ? No.

It's the same with shellguns.
The books, the tables, the rules tell us they're flame weapons : they're flame weapons. Why would they be anything else ?
That they rely on shells rather than batteries or petrol, or whatever else does not matter.

And if you're that opposed to the idea ... See with your GM about house-ruling. Your table, your game, do what you will.

[Zwordsman]

(wasn't arguing anything at all. Was talking through ideas for folks to help work on ideas)
Was asking about ways to improve~
Sounds like there isn't a way to improve line weapons sadly.

Thanks for the input folks. Shame, line weapons seem to fall behind heavily compared to any other AoE abilities in the game. Have to be a great deal closer, much harder to get multiple in it, not the best damage type.
Ah well. I'll still get one eventually and add a frost converter to it for fun reversals.

Thanks folks!

A note on what I was referring to for the category issue that is not the topic of this thread:

(
I do wish there was more consistency in the not tabled things. Shells into random fire damage in one specific weapon, and not others is strange, more so when the description of the ammo specifies scattering metal balls.
Further the description of Cartridges-a category of ammo-specifically refers to them as projectile. "This type of ammunition includes bullets (often called rounds or shells), bolts, darts, mini-rockets, pellets, and other physical projectiles with any necessary casing and propellant"
I really wish the Shellgun line used a different ammo, or they create separate shell types later.

And the reason details like that is a consistency issues that cropped up in Pathfinder as the years and supplements go by. Just browsing the forums or PFS can net you a ton of awkward cases like that.

)

[HammerJack]

I'm a bit confused by some of your general conclusions about line weapons.

They are available for most damage types, and a number of them have a decent range, shorter than non-AoE weapons, but definitely not requiring them to get closer than blast weapons.

They can be trickier to catch multiple targets in than an explosion, but also tend to do better damage than blast or explode weapons, to a single target.

[Xenocrat]

And they go through walls!

[Pantshandshake]

Only if the wall is not a mountain, and the weapon is not a flamethrower!

In seriousness though, there’s also no saving for half damage (right? I think I’m right…)

[HammerJack]

Save for half is explode only. Blast and line are attack roll based (at a -2 for blast.)

Line weapons don't ignore concealment like blast does, though.

[Pantshandshake]

It's almost like alternate forms of attacking come with different pros and cons.

[HammerJack]

And then, less widely available, there's the wide line (easier to catch multiple targets with) and flexible line (the most fun AoE option ever).