Kitsune Weretouched (Bull) Shifter Interactions

[Isaac Zephyr]

Got some interaction questions, starting from the top.

#1:

Weretouched wrote:

However, instead of assuming a major form, she can assume a hybrid form that mixes the traits of her natural form and the major form of her aspect. While in a hybrid form, she gain a +2 size bonus to her Strength score, a +2 natural armor bonus to her AC, and all of the natural attacks and abilities listed by her major form. A weretouched also counts as being in her natural form for the purpose of determining whether she can extend her shifter claws.

So as a kitsune were-bull hybrid, this character would gain the gore attack, but still maintain having her natural bite, and her shifter claws. Would all of these attacks benefit from Shifter Claws?

Shifter Claws wrote:

While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect‘s major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability.

Or would the bite attack still be omitted because it's not technically granted by the major form?

#2:

Vulpine Pounce wrote:

When you change shape into your kitsune form and use the charge action in the same round, you can make a full attack against your opponent.

How does the Vulpine Pounce feat work with the bull Major Aspect granting Powerful Charge?

Powerful Charge wrote:

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, its attack deals extra damage in addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge. The attack and amount of damage from the attack is given in the creature’s description.

Does only the gore get Powerful Charge? Do all the pounce attacks? Or do none because the abilities cannot interact, and you much choose pounce or power?

#3:

Shifter's Edge wrote:

Whenever you use Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with your claws or a natural attack augmented by your claws, and you use your Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you also add half your shifter level to the damage.

If the bite is not omitted, would all the attacks benefit from Shifter's Edge?

[willuwontu]

Isaac Zephyr wrote:

Got some interaction questions, starting from the top.

#1: So as a kitsune were-bull hybrid, this character would gain the gore attack, but still maintain having her natural bite, and her shifter claws. Would all of these attacks benefit from Shifter Claws?

Or would the bite attack still be omitted because it's not technically granted by the major form?

#2: How does the Vulpine Pounce feat work with the bull Major Aspect granting Powerful Charge?

Does only the gore get Powerful Charge? Do all the pounce attacks? Or do none because the abilities cannot interact, and you much choose pounce or power?

#3: If the bite is not omitted, would all the attacks benefit from Shifter's Edge?

1) You lose the bite and all racials that you would lose from a polymorph effect when you shift into your hybrid form as it is a polymorph effect (Wild Shape, just for a special form).

Quote:

At 4th level, when a weretouched uses wild shape, she can assume only the form of an animal of the same type as her lycanthrope aspect. However, instead of assuming a major form, she can assume a hybrid form that mixes the traits of her natural form and the major form of her aspect. While in a hybrid form, she gain a +2 size bonus to her Strength score, a +2 natural armor bonus to her AC, and all of the natural attacks and abilities listed by her major form. A weretouched also counts as being in her natural form for the purpose of determining whether she can extend her shifter claws. A weretouched’s hybrid form is roughly the same size and shape as her natural form, albeit with bestial qualities such as digitigrade legs or shaggy fur, so her equipment does not merge into her new form when she shifts between her natural form and hybrid form. In addition, the size of a weretouched’s hybrid form is the same as the size of her natural form. This otherwise counts as assuming a major form using wild shape.

Wild Shape wrote:

This ability functions as beast shape II, except as noted here.

Also note:

Quote:

A weretouched also counts as being in her natural form for the purpose of determining whether she can extend her shifter claws.

Your claws would only apply to themselves in this case. You can extend them though.

Otherwise I refer you to how shifter claws work when wildshaped:

Shifter Claws wrote:

While a shifter uses wild shape to assume her aspect‘s major form, her natural attacks gain the same benefits granted by her shifter claws ability. If the form she takes has claw attacks, she can use either the base damage of her shifter claws or the damage of the form’s claws, whichever is greater. If the form does not have claw attacks, she can choose up to two natural attacks that would deal less damage than her shifter claw damage and have those attacks instead deal the same damage as her shifter claws.

You are correct in that it wouldn't apply to the bite anyways because it's not granted by the aspect.

2) If you're in your hybrid form or Major Aspect you need to change back into your kitsune form, not your hybrid form. This is a standard action, which would prevent you from having the actions for charging available.

Quote:

Using wild shape to change to a major form or back is a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

If you're currently using your change shape ability it is a swift action per swift kitsune shapechanger the prereq for vulpine pounce. This may be able to override the standard action of shifter's wild shape.

Quote:

Benefit: You can assume human or kitsune form as a swift action. If you have the Fox Shape feat, you can assume fox form as a swift action as well.

If you have shifter's rush you could change to a kitsune as a swift using SKS, then charge and change into your hybrid form as part of the charge.

Per the form powerful charge only applies to the gore attack.

Bull Form wrote:

(+1d8 on your gore attack)

Now it could be argued to a GM that it's intended to be +1d8 for all attacks made on the charge, but sadly that is not RAW.

3)

Shifter's Edge wrote:

Whenever you use Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with your claws or a natural attack augmented by your claws, and you use your Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and your Strength modifier on damage rolls, you also add half your shifter level to the damage.

If it meets that then yes, if not, then no.

[Alphavoltario]

#1) With the vanilla Shifter, no. With your WereTouched, the bite is now included as a part of that hybrid form, so I don't see why not.

#2a) It doesn't. Vulpine Pounce wouldn't work unless you're going into Kitsune form, and Major Aspect only works in Wildshape form. Given the fastest you can Change Shape is a swift, and Wild Shaping is a standard at base, you cannot charge, and therefore can't Vulpine Pounce, even if you could fluff the Kitsune form requirement.
#2b)

Bull Major Aspect:

"...and a gore attack (1d8 damage) with powerful charge (+1d8 on your gore attack)..."

Only the gore.

#3) If we're saying that the bite is now part of your Wild Shape, the Shifter's Claws ability would include it, so yes.

--->As a side note regarding the bite: I would say you do not keep the bite only on the statement made in the Kitsune's natural attack description.

Kitsune Bite:

Natural Weapons (Ex): In her natural form, a kitsune has a bite attack that deals 1d4 points of damage.

It's not exactly their 'natural form' is it? I would ask a DM on this as it is technically a hybrid, and the bite wording is meant to keep people from biting in human form.

[Isaac Zephyr]

That makes some sense.

I guess I viewed it a bit like an RS NOR latch, where you have two switches which determine the output. Hybrid and Vulpine. However they are both polymorph effects, so I guess they really don't mix do they.

You cannot be human-hybrid with this kitsune. Going hybrid woukd overwrite their Change Shape (Alter Self) and force them into Kitsune form. I assume anyway.

Weretouched also strangely specifies you only count as your natural form for Shifter's Claws, which is oddly specific. So it may be dicey whether the kitsune is in their natural form at all while hybrid for reasons. A different example of this might be the Cecaelia with their tentacles, who would to my knowledge still have those tentacles in hybrid. Granted they aren't natural shapeshifters like the Kitsune are, so "natural form" doesn't at all fit into their trait description.

[Isaac Zephyr]

Alphavoltario wrote:

#2a) It doesn't. Vulpine Pounce wouldn't work unless you're going into Kitsune form, and Major Aspect only works in Wildshape form. Given the fastest you can Change Shape is a swift, and Wild Shaping is a standard at base, you cannot charge, and therefore can't Vulpine Pounce, even if you could fluff the Kitsune form requirement.

Okay I found another feat that modifies things. Shifter's Rush. Would Shifter's Rush + Vulpine Pounce work for the Weretouched? (I assume it would not for stock Shifter because when they wild shape as normal they would cease being a Kitsune for the feat prereqs, unlike the hybrid.)

Scenario, turn 1 of combat the Kit-shifter uses a swift action to activate their minor aspect, and a swift to change into human form. Turn 2, the shifter reverts to Kitsune form and charges, satisfying the requirements for Vulpine Pounce, then using the free action from Shifter's Rush to assume hybrid form before the inevitable clash and full attack.

[willuwontu]

Isaac Zephyr wrote:

(I assume it would not for stock Shifter because when they wild shape as normal they would cease being a Kitsune for the feat prereqs, unlike the hybrid.)

Incorrect, wildshape does not change your subtypes, you still qualify.

As for the usage, I'll repost this here:

Quote:

If you have shifter's rush you could change to a kitsune as a swift using SKS, then charge and change into your hybrid form as part of the charge.

So turn 1 you'd turn into a human (or better yet, always be a human until combat starts). Turn 2, you use SKS to turn into a kitsune as a swift action, and charge using Shifter's Rush to turn into your major/hybrid form.