Looking for advice on items and feats past the first level. I really like the idea of a drinking, smoking, lying, cheating, cowardly, but also charming, and secretly brave gunslinger. (Think Mel Gibson's Maverick Character). I don't care about min/maxing, just having fun and role playing the heck out of him. However, that being said, I also don't want to gimp him and have him ending up useless after a certain point.
I looked online but haven't seen this combo talked about, so I thought I would reach out to you all.
Specifically is there any way to increase his will saves until his luck bonus starts kicking in?
This is what I'm starting with:
Marcus "Dusty" Riggs
Human Mysterious Stranger/Maverick Gunslinger 1
Rolled Stats
STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 11
CHA: 18 (Human Racial Bonus Applied)
Feats:
Extra Grit
Rapid Reload: Pistol
Traits:
Fortified Drinker
Iron Liver
Never Stop Shooting
Drawback:
Cowardly
Favored Class Bonus (1) - Skill Point
Starting Gear:
(4) Alchemical cartridge (paper) 24gp (50% Reduction for crafting before campaign begins)
(12) Firearm Bullet 1gp 2sp (90% Reduction for crafting before campaign begins)
(1) Pistol Free
(1) Terbutje, steel 20gp
(1) Leather Armor 10gp
(1) Animal-repellant sack 1gp
(1) Bachelor Snuff 1gp
(3) Belt pouches 3gp
(1) Canteen 2gp
(1) Cards 1sp
(1) Coffee Pot 3gp
(2) Coffee, Mwangi 6cp
(1) Dice 1sp
(1) Bag of Fake Coins (25) 5gp
(1) Filter Scarf 5gp
(1) Flint & Steel 1gp
(1) Gunsmith’s Kit 15gp
(1) Hat 2sp
(1) Hip Flask 1gp
(1) Inside pocket 4gp
(1) Insulated flask 2sp
(2) Jungle Coffee 6cp
(2) Leechwort 6gp
(1) Loaded Dice 10gp
(1) Marked Cards 1gp
(1) Oldlaw Whiskey (per bottle) 20gp
(5) Paper 2gp
(1) Pickpocket’s Outfit Free
(1) Poncho 5sp
(1) Powder Horn 3gp
(1) Reagent Black Powder 10gp
(1) Snuffbox Tin 5gp
(1) Tindertwig 1gp
(1) Tobacco 1gp
(1) Wolfsbane 5sp
(1) Wrist Sheath 1gp
Have you thought about swapping your charisma and dexterity scores? You are a front line ranged character without Nimble, you're gonna need the AC. Without quick clear, you likely won't be burning through grit too quickly. I actually would forget extra grit as well. Firearms are feat intensive. You shoot on touch AC, so any accuracy you can trade for damage is a good deal. A good basic feat progression would be as so: Lvl 1 Deadly Aim, Human Feat Rapid Reload, 3rd lvl Point Blank Shot, 4th lvl Precise Shot, 5th level Rapid Shot.
After 5th level, the Gunslinger has few features left to gain. Consider multi classing. The Gun Chemist, the Fermenter or the Mixologist Alchemist could both be lovely additions to your concept.
The Mysterious Strangers Lucky class feature basically requires you to take Fates Favored as a trait. Maybe considered replacing Never Stop Shooting or Iron Liver? Could go all in and switch to a Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoo. Take Shamans Apprentice too for free Endurance, and you open up easy access to Diehard.
That's all I've got, my friend. Your concept sounds fantastic. Have fun with your character :)
Have you thought about swapping your charisma and dexterity scores? You are a front line ranged character without Nimble, you're gonna need the AC. Without quick clear, you likely won't be burning through grit too quickly. I actually would forget extra grit as well. Firearms are feat intensive. You shoot on touch AC, so any accuracy you can trade for damage is a good deal. A good basic feat progression would be as so: Lvl 1 Deadly Aim, Human Feat Rapid Reload, 3rd lvl Point Blank Shot, 4th lvl Precise Shot, 5th level Rapid Shot.
After 5th level, the Gunslinger has few features left to gain. Consider multi classing. The Gun Chemist, the Fermenter or the Mixologist Alchemist could both be lovely additions to your concept.
The Mysterious Strangers Lucky class feature basically requires you to take Fates Favored as a trait. Maybe considered replacing Never Stop Shooting or Iron Liver? Could go all in and switch to a Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoo. Take Shamans Apprentice too for free Endurance, and you open up easy access to Diehard.
That's all I've got, my friend. Your concept sounds fantastic. Have fun with your character :)
The swap of DEX and CHA is a good idea, thanks! I guess I kept thinking I would need the Grit more than the AC.
I'm imagining that he's hampered to needing to drink before a fight to basically reduce parts of his drawback (Liquid Courage). That's why I love Iron Liver and Fortified Drinker. I could put off the above Feat progression by 2 levels, by removing extra Grit and taking Additional Traits, that way I could still add Fate's Favored, and something else useful, any ideas? (We can't have more than 1 trait from each type)
Doing the above two would now take my Grit pool down to just 3 however. Of course, if I add armor expert for the trait and remove Never Stop Shooting, I can keep my DEX and CHA where they are, and then be back up to 4 for the Grit pool, plus be able to take better armor.
Multiclassing Mysterious Stranger with the Paladin Divine Hunter archetype works pretty well. It may not fit with the character you are building, but you might be able to make it work.
Not a bad idea. I was thinking of dipping into fighter to quicken up the feat progression, but this guy is no Paladin. Might have to figure out anther way to go.
This feat can help with your Will saves. It doesn't cover everything, but comes close. I'd replace it with Extra Grit.
This feat can help with your Will saves. It doesn't cover everything, but comes close. I'd replace it with Extra Grit.
Thank you! I think that's perfect for what I'm looking for to get out of the first few levels.
I'm going to disagree a little on the feat order. While you eventually want Deadly Aim at low levels your opponents will tend to be low AC and relatively high dex. Rapid Reload is kind of a must, but get Point Blank Shot/Point Blank Shot/Rapid Fire before you pick up Deadly Aim.
Something you should figure out before 5th level is how your GM feels about Advanced Firearms. If you can use the advanced version of your preferred weapon you need to know before you select which firearm gets your dex to damage. Remember you can make it yourself for half cost.
A
At low levels, he won't have the funds for a massive number of alchemical cartridges. Without free action reloads, Rapid Shot is useless. Deadly Aim is a good damage boost that doesn't depend on cartridge consumption. Granted Point Blank Shot is only 1 less damage a round, with an accuracy boost at the only range that matters. Perhaps Rapid Reload/Point Blank Shot would be more optimal at first level.
I'm going to disagree a little on the feat order. While you eventually want Deadly Aim at low levels your opponents will tend to be low AC and relatively high dex. Rapid Reload is kind of a must, but get Point Blank Shot/Point Blank Shot/Rapid Fire before you pick up Deadly Aim.
Something you should figure out before 5th level is how your GM feels about Advanced Firearms. If you can use the advanced version of your preferred weapon you need to know before you select which firearm gets your dex to damage. Remember you can make it yourself for half cost.
AAt low levels, he won't have the funds for a massive number of alchemical cartridges. Without free action reloads, Rapid Shot is useless. Deadly Aim is a good damage boost that doesn't depend on cartridge consumption. Granted Point Blank Shot is only 1 less damage a round, with an accuracy boost at the only range that matters. Perhaps Rapid Reload/Point Blank Shot would be more optimal at first level.
Rapid Reload is something every gunslinger needs at low levels because using standard actions to reload sucks. If you don't feel like making cartridges you can save a few silver and not raise the misfire chance to reload as a move action. Personally I think its worth the extra cost to be able to fire and move.
If OP follows the order I suggested to buy feats in he won't have Rapid Fire before 4th level. I think he can afford to make a bit more ammo by then. Though if its really a concern he can take Deadly Aim before taking Rapid Fire the next level.
If the OP is really worried about money for ammo, see if the GM is ok with you selling a keg of powder once between adventures. That is 400gp in profit.
Yeah, Rapid Reload is a for sure. I'm thinking about Steadfast Personality, and then when will save catches up, retraining that to a combat feat another PC has. One in the same feat progression as what I am going for (Point Blank Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, etc.) As long as there is one other ranged character, I'm sure I can find an overlapping feat that I can use to retrain. If not, I won't take it and just gut out the will saves for a few levels (Hey, Hero Points have to be used for something).
It's a house run campaign, so I think it would be ok to sell some black powder every so often to pay for alchemical rounds, as long as I don't break the wealth by level, I should be ok.
I found a cool feat progression on another thread Here Trying to figure out the class levels (Where to dip into Fighter and for how long) to accomplish basically this idea:
Two Pistols (or revolvers if I can retrain enough weapon specific feats). Crafted by me (slowly adding bonuses as I can). Firing as much damage and as many times as I can a round (I usually don't look to end game mechanics, but just can't help myself with this class. It just seems so fun to look ahead)
In no particular order, I see this as the Feat list;
Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Snap Shot
Point Blank Master
Deadly Aim
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Quick Draw
Gun Twirling
And for Crafting as I go, these Feats:
(Do I need to still have a spell caster put spells on the weapons, or can I read them from a scroll spell and/or increase the DC of the check?)
Master Craftsman - Craft (Firearms)
Craft Magical Arms & Armor
Eventually ending up with:
(2) +1 - Lucky, Reliable, Distance, Pistols or Revolvers
The overall build is looking like:
Gunslinger 12/Fighter 8, with two more Feats to add (Armor Related?)
Swapping out my original Dex and Charisma from before, and Possibly taking the Gunlover Trait (It's 3rd party, so I might not be able to).
I would love to hear if this seems like a decent plan, and in what order I should class dip and add feats. This will be my first character that is feat heavy with an end game in mind (Lot's of feat trees).
A pit fall in building a dual-wielding mysterious stranger is the archetypes removal of Quick Clear. When making multiple shots a round with cartridges, you're going to have a lot of misfires. Possibly more than the Strangers Fortune feature can mitigate. This creates a conflict between character flavor/concept and character mechanics. If you feel that Maverick gives you enough of the flavor you want, then Pistolero is a good substitute for Mysterious Stranger. If Mysterious Stranger is integral to your character concept, I might reconsider the dual wield route. I'm certain someone on the boards can show you the statistics for firearm miss fires when dual wielding, and that's worth looking up when making this choice.
If you stick with the dual wielding route, you might consider an Alchmemist dip for Vestigial Limb. Maverick/Guntwirling/Dual-wielding route is badass, but extremely resource intensive. Two levels of alchemist gets you dual wielding, plus Mutagen and a competence bonus to Craft Alchemy. Flavor wise, he'd be a third-rate alchemist who up charges fools for low level extracts and peddles useless snake oils and placebo's.
As far as fighter levels go, there's a couple archetypes worth considering. Cad adds character flavor and Weapon Master get's early access Weapon Training. Trench Fighter get's Dex to firearm damage rolls, which can build on a musket wielding Mysterious Stranger.
I'm brainstorming some other concepts, so I'll be back with more. I hope this was helpful, and that you find a way to make your concept come to life :)
I just noticed! The Gun Chemist Alchemist's Gunsmith feature allows him to spend a use of Alchemical Ordinance to remove the broken condition, so long as it was gained from a misfire. It's possible this combined with Strangers Fortune would be enough misfire mitigation to make dual wielding viable for the Mysterious Stranger.
A pit fall in building a dual-wielding mysterious stranger is the archetypes removal of Quick Clear. When making multiple shots a round with cartridges, you're going to have a lot of misfires. Possibly more than the Strangers Fortune feature can mitigate. This creates a conflict between character flavor/concept and character mechanics. If you feel that Maverick gives you enough of the flavor you want, then Pistolero is a good substitute for Mysterious Stranger. If Mysterious Stranger is integral to your character concept, I might reconsider the dual wield route. I'm certain someone on the boards can show you the statistics for firearm miss fires when dual wielding, and that's worth looking up when making this choice.
If you stick with the dual wielding route, you might consider an Alchmemist dip for Vestigial Limb. Maverick/Guntwirling/Dual-wielding route is badass, but extremely resource intensive. Two levels of alchemist gets you dual wielding, plus Mutagen and a competence bonus to Craft Alchemy. Flavor wise, he'd be a third-rate alchemist who up charges fools for low level extracts and peddles useless snake oils and placebo's.
As far as fighter levels go, there's a couple archetypes worth considering. Cad adds character flavor and Weapon Master get's early access Weapon Training. Trench Fighter get's Dex to firearm damage rolls, which can build on a musket wielding Mysterious Stranger.
I'm brainstorming some other concepts, so I'll be back with more. I hope this was helpful, and that you find a way to make your concept come to life :)
I really love the Charisma based Deeds and Grit that I get from Mysterious Stranger. And the two Archetypes flavor together really well. I am very nervous about the misfire's, and really wish that I could keep Quick Clear. The Gunlover trait, if I can get it allowed, should take care of that a bit though. Are there any other ways to get something like Quick Clear, lessen the misfire to zero or find a work around? I know mending would make it 10 minutes instead of 1 hour, but even something that could make it a full round action or less would be optimal. I suppose with quick draw at later levels I could just have a few revolvers or pistols tucked away as guns misfire. Maybe not as Magical, but still plenty flavorful. Thank you so much for all the ideas. I really like the Alchemist Idea, especially the flavor of him just being a giant con man in every way possible,
You seem like you know your stuff really well. Can you chime in on my idea of crafting my own magical Firearms, like I outlined above. Does that work that way?
The Firebrand Gunslinger archetype stacks with Maverick, and uses Charisma for Grit. It even keeps the quick clear deed! It does trade out the bonus feats though, which hurts for a gun twirling build.
Alternatively, we can use this rule to work around the standard grit pool.
"Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the three resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck do not gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa.
A luck user does not count as a grit or panache user to satisfy feat prerequisites. Swashbuckler levels stack with gunslinger levels for the purpose of satisfying Signature Deed’s level requirement."
Using the text above, we can dip into a class with panache or luck to gain your charisma modifier to your Grit pool. The vanilla swashbuckler achieves this, with the Musketeer Archetype adding back Quick Clear and the Picaroon archetype adding a decent melee option. The Sleuth Investigator gets luck. Off the top of my head, the Kata Master, Virtuous Bravo, Hooded Champion and the Daring Champion all gain panache.
As for your other questions, I'll help you later tomorrow. For now, I need sleep.
I'm going to disagree a little on the feat order. While you eventually want Deadly Aim at low levels your opponents will tend to be low AC and relatively high dex. Rapid Reload is kind of a must, but get Point Blank Shot/Point Blank Shot/Rapid Fire before you pick up Deadly Aim.
Something you should figure out before 5th level is how your GM feels about Advanced Firearms. If you can use the advanced version of your preferred weapon you need to know before you select which firearm gets your dex to damage. Remember you can make it yourself for half cost.
As for other classes to mix with, stat wise your a bit limited. Sorcerer is a possibility, but it doesn't have enough synergy with gunslinger to make it really attractive. Oracle works much better, you could have a 'revelation' and take up being an old west style preacher. You could also take up being a 'singing cowboy' and invest in Bard levels. Or you could just start investing in Fighter. Trench Fighter is a gun-specific Fighter archetype but honestly you don't need it and the armor training is probably more beneficial. More importantly 4 levels of fighter opens up Point Blank Mastery.
Swashbuckler would also give you access to PBMastery but I'm not convinced that is a good idea. Though Panache and Grit combine for a single pool so it might not be a bad idea.
A more difficult build would be to dip into Magus: eldritch archer. This would give you ranged spell strike and your focus could be a firearm (or 2). This would definitely up your damage potential. Its too bad you can't go Eldritch Scion as well, but the 2 archetypes alter the same abilities in ways that aren't really compatible. This means sooner or later you'll want to get an item to raise your int.
I could be missing something, but why do I need to have two feats worth of Point Blank Shot. Is it just to counter the negatives to hit with the other feats? In other words, can it be avoided if there are other bonuses instead, such as a fighters weapon training, or the +1 from an enchanted weapon? I'm trying to find a way to get through these feats as quick as possible. Including enchanting the first pair of guns with training to add two feats that way, and possibly Martial Master for a move action feat right before battle begins. I'm thinking about starting with one level of Gunslinger (Maverick/Mysterious Stranger), then go Fighter (Martial Master) 2 before going back to Gunslinger 5, then Fighter 8.
By 8th level I should have 10 Feats (Including Weapon Proficiency, and Dazzling Display), plus enough wealth to craft 2 Firearms with Training on each for 2 other feats.
That's 12 feats by level 8.Any other way to get that chain going any earlier would help.
...but get Point Blank Shot/Point Blank Shot/Rapid Fire.......I could be missing something, but why do I need to have two feats worth of Point Blank Shot...
I suspect this is a typo, and that Meirril intended to say Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. You can't take Point Blank Shot more than once.
As far as crafting goes, either a caster will need to provide the spell components or you'll need to increase the DC. So yes, you've got the right idea. However, by picking up the Magical Talent trait you can gain the ability to cast a single cantrip, such as mending. This would allow you to create a Reliable pistol without increasing the DC by 5 for the missing prerequisite. I'm uncertain if it's worth a trait, but it's an option.
The Training enchantment has some fuzzy rules though. I'm not sure if you can increase the DC to ignore the special combat feat prerequisite or not.
Getting all those feats is going to be a challenge, no matter what you do. I was messing around with a progression earlier, but forgot to include crafting feats. My first draft was built with the assumption of taking Trench Fighter, and goes as so:
Char lvl 1, Gunslinger 1
Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot
Char lvl 2, Fighter 1
Precise Shot
Char lvl 3, Gunslinger 2
Weapon Focus
Char lvl 4, Fighter 2
Quickdraw
Char lvl 5, Gunslinger 3
Dazzling Display (Bonus Feat)
Gun Twirling
Char lvl 6, Gunslinger 4
Two-Weapon Fighting
Char lvl 7, Fighter 3
Rapid Shot and Dex to Damage.
I set it up to to try and front load as many feats in as I could. Hopefully it will be a helpful framework for working in your crafting.
I'd go pure gunslinger to 5th level. Firearms are great because you can hit touch AC in the first range increment. But in return for that they have a bunch of fiddly rules about ammo, ammo is expensive, and a secret nerf: its harder to add damage to a firearm than a bow. Bows have a way to add strength, and have a lot more feats that are bow only.
That dex bonus to damage you get a 5th level is a major boost. There isn't any feat that will add as much damage as this will without introducing a negative to hit that off sets the bonus.
I'm losing the Dex to Damage from Mysterious Stranger, but I have a way to pick it back up, even earlier, as a level 3 Fighter - Trench Fighter, If I go Gunslinger 1, then Fighter 3, which also gets my Feats going pretty quick as well. But I might also dip 1 level in Monk before that for two free Feats (Explained below. Although I hate losing the BAB progression, but... trade offs.)
And Precise Shot is amazing. Without it you take a -4 to hit if the opponent is in melee combat. While not every opponent you have will be in melee combat, this is going to be regular enough that you had better have this feat.
And while Improved Precise Shot is a high on a lot of ranged builds, personally I favor the enchantment Seeking over it. Seeking not only does what the feat provides, it is also defeats Invisibility and other spells that cause miss chance (like Mirror Image). All of that for a +1.
That is amazing. It didn't even register on my radar when I was looking through weapon enhancements.
The Training enchantment on the other hand...I don't really like it. Most feats have an efficiency of around 0 to +2 from the scale I introduced above. The effects that add 1d6 of damage are more efficient at 3.5 while a +1 bonus is +3 on that same efficiency scale (just like point blank shot).
I don't mind it because of the fact that it can be the first or second enhancement on the weapon (thus coming as early as 5th/6th level, and because it would be one at the end of a feat chain, and I could either retrain it with time and gold, or for free through the fighter class ability. I'm specifically thinking about Deadly Aim and Improved Critical (which can be added a bit later once the Two Weapon Fighting starts kicking in.
But if you end up with a whole lot of cash and you still feel squeezed for feats by all means get training. Just remember you don't have these feats unless you are holding the guns in your hand. So don't put Quickdraw on them for instance.
Yeah, I won't do anything like that, :)
...but get Point Blank Shot/Point Blank Shot/Rapid Fire.......I could be missing something, but why do I need to have two feats worth of Point Blank Shot...I suspect this is a typo, and that Meirril intended to say Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. You can't take Point Blank Shot more than once.
As far as crafting goes, either a caster will need to provide the spell components or you'll need to increase the DC. So yes, you've got the right idea. However, by picking up the Magical Talent trait you can gain the ability to cast a single cantrip, such as mending. This would allow you to create a Reliable pistol without increasing the DC by 5 for the missing prerequisite. I'm uncertain if it's worth a trait, but it's an option.
The Training enchantment has some fuzzy rules though. I'm not sure if you can increase the DC to ignore the special combat feat prerequisite or not.
Getting all those feats is going to be a challenge, no matter what you do. I was messing around with a progression earlier, but forgot to include crafting feats. My first draft was built with the assumption of taking Trench Fighter, and goes as so:
** spoiler omitted **I set it up to to try and front load as many feats in as I could. Hopefully it will be a helpful framework for working in your crafting.
It did help a lot, thank you. I also found a couple work arounds, to get a few more earlier as well.
As far as the training enhancement goes, I'm still trying to figure out how to work that. Either I take the feat, craft the pistol, then retrain the feat, or see if there is an increase to the DC if I have all the prereqs of the feat but not the feat itself. In the below plan, I am assuming it's the latter, but if it's the former, the progression stays the same after I retrain.
I worked this progression out today, you might get a kick out of it :)
Feats are numbered
Human
(Level 1) Human Gunslinger 1
Mysterious Stranger / Maverick
(1) Exotic Weapon Profeciency (Firearms)
(2) Rapid Reload (Pistol)
(3) Point Blank Shot
(Level 2) Monk 1
Far Strike Monk
(4) Quick Draw
(5) Precise Shot
(Level 3) Fighter 1
Trench Fighter / Martial Master
(6) Rapid Shot
(7) Weapon Focus (Pistol)
(Level 4) Fighter 2
(8) Two Weapon Fighting (Craft a second pistol for 500 gp in a day with Gunsmithing)
(Level 5) Fighter 3 (This is where you get back Dex to Damage)
(9) Master Craftsman
(Level 6) Fighter 4
(10) Weapon Specialization (Pistol)
(Level 7) Gunslinger 2
(11) Craft Magical Arms & Armor
(12) [+1 Training Pistol 1] Improved Critical
(13) [+1 Training Pistol 1] Combat Reflexes
(Level 8) Gunslinger 3
(13) Dazzling Display
(14) [+1 Training Pistol 2] Gun Twirling
(15) [+1 Training Pistol 2] Deadly Aim
(Level 9) Gunslinger 4
(16) Snap Shot
(17) Point Blank Master
(Add Reliable to both guns)
(Level 10) Fighter 5
(18) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
(Level 11) Gunslinger 5
(19) Improved Snap Shot
(Level 12) Fighter 6
(20) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
(21) (Add Seeking to both guns) (Counts as Improved Precise Shot)
Somewhere down the line I was going to also add Distance to both. Or possibly sell what I have at around this level when I could pick up the rest of the feats on the guns, and start crafting new ones with: +1 or +2 and Lucky, Reliable, Seeking, & Distance. Possibly doing them one at a time when I can add each feat.
I also want to say thank you to everyone on here who takes time out of their day to help people like me with these builds.
As far as crafting goes, either a caster will need to provide the spell components or you'll need to increase the DC. So yes, you've got the right idea. However, by picking up the Magical Talent trait you can gain the ability to cast a single cantrip, such as mending. This would allow you to create a Reliable pistol without increasing the DC by 5 for the missing prerequisite. I'm uncertain if it's worth a trait, but it's an option.
I added Hedge magician as a trait, that way crafting the guns at later levels saves thousands of gold. Especially if I end up creating two sets - one for feats, and another for abilities after I learn those feats later on.